EPISODE 08: SURFING + MOTHERHOOD WITH MARGARET YAO CALVANI

Sep 24

Born to Taiwanese immigrant parents, Margaret Yao Calvani is a first generation Asian-American who grew up in Arcadia, California, graduated from UCLA and navigated the corporate American maze for a several years before following her passion for surfing to her current occupation as co-owner and GM of Bing Surfboards, a 60+ year old heritage surfboard manufacturing company founded in Hermosa Beach, California.

Now she runs the factory and retail store out of Encinitas, California where she resides with her husband and surfboard designer/shaper, Matt Calvani and her two kids, Jacob and Coco.

You can follower her on IG: @theshaperswife, @bingsurfboards, @bingsurfshop

EPISODE 08: SURFING + MOTHERHOOD WITH MARGARET YAO CALVANI

Takeaways

In this episode we talk about motherhood, leaving the expectation of a “traditional career” Chinese parents would be proud of, raising biracial children and, of course, surfing.

You can check out the following resources we cover:

Margaret featured in an article about surfing + motherhood in Surfer Magazine
Bing surfboards
Hap Jacobs
Reggio Emilia approach to education
UCLA

Transcript:

We are back with another episode of the fuck saving face podcast, which is all about breaking taboos and talking about mental and emotional health for the model, quote, unquote, model minority.

So today I didn't even ask you if you want me to use your full name, Margaret Yao Calvani. So. She is the owner of Bing Surfboards. So for anybody who's in San Diego or beyond, cause you're a global brand. Um, maybe you have a being surf board and, um, Margaret and her husband, Matt own the company. And you know, it's one of the many amazing things that Margaret does.

She's also an incredible community leader who rallies a bunch of moms. So I'm just going to say that too. Um, but I'm going to turn it over to Margaret to talk a little bit about your cultural background and, um, and then we'll dive into a conversation about surfing, about having biracial children and, uh, a go for it.

Okay. I'm Margaret Yao Calvani, I'm a Taiwanese American, uh, born in the U S grew up in a predominantly Asian community in Arcadia, California, and, you know, walk the path of a, uh, first generation Chinese American, basically foreign to my parents, immigrated from Taiwan in the seventies. And my brother and I were born here late later on.

My little brother came, so we were all raised kind of straddling the two worlds. So Margaret, um, I'm actually here at Margaret's house. Um, You know, we'll say we're six feet apart, pandemic. And, um, so you might hear kids running around the background, but, um, we are in Encinitas, California, which is a wonderful place to be.

Um, but Margaret now owns a surf brand, although before she was on the fast track to business success. And I remember we went to dinner recently and you were telling me that, um, You used to go surfing then, like have water dripping out of your nose as you try to like put on heels and like go into your work.

So can you tell me about what you used to do before all this? Yeah. Yeah, definitely very drastic career change. Um, I did the, you know, star student high school did, went to UCLA, like the good Asian student from Arcadia and. You know, double majored in economics and Chinese literature, and then got the, got the, you know, big five job at Arthur Anderson consulting.

And then it just kind of walk the beaten path, the UCLA grad, and did five years in the business consulting world. But the whole, and I also discovered surfing in college. So, you know, it was something that was always part of my, like working, I guess, adulthood. Where did you go surfing at UCLA? I surfed in Malibu.

I learned to surf at first point Malibu. Pretty magical place to learn to surf this perfect right hand point break. And the culture is just so ingrained there. And it was just such like a magical thing. And I played collegiate sports too for a little bit. So it was like just having that physical outlet was a big deal for me.

But, you know, career was definitely like the main goal and, you know, graduating with honors and getting a good job out of college was all just about, you know, That's what being Chinese American is about. Right. And it's like pressure you to go to UCLA or, I mean, like, did they have expectations of you? I think by, by high school it was just so I was just so hardwired.

Like they didn't even have to say anything or do anything. I was on the life, fast track, you know, for APS, you know, Senior year and just like burning the candle at both ends and sat prep and volunteer work and just everything under the sun, you know, it was just building up that resume and building up the college obligation.

So by then I was already wired. I was going on to my best option and, you know, we actually had an argument because I got into an Ivy league school, um, in, in Pennsylvania. But, you know, they didn't really want to pay for it. They wanted me to stay in state. So UCLA was kind of like that. Yeah, backup. I remember that being an argument with my parents, where I wanted to apply to East coast schools.

And I was like, but the Ivy leagues are better than like, and then they wouldn't let me do it. So it was probably like Harvard or bust. Yeah. It's pretty standard. I mean, my parents, you know, were like crazy academically, like pressuring parents, but I mean, it's just part of the culture and you just grow up with that expectation.

And if you have any ounce of like, drive. You just, you just drink the Kool-Aid and you just walk the path, you know, and you just fall into line. And you're the oldest of three. You're also the oldest. Oh, is your, the middle. Oh, that's right. Your brother's older than you. So did they have different expectations of you because you were a girl.

Um, I actually think my, my older brother and I are literally like only a hot minute apart. He's 11 months older. So we were kind of like twins, but I mean, he actually bore the brunt of the pressure. Um, as the like eldest male, I kind of just was like the star middle child, you know, that could do no wrong.

And I, you know, definitely fulfilled that role and. Basked in it obnoxiously I'm. Sure. Um, and so when you were choosing majors, was it just like a foregone conclusion? That's like what you're saying? I started out as an English lit major, which was very non-traditional and very raised some eyebrows, like, what are you going to, that's why I majored in English.

I loved reading. I loved lit I had a very inspirational high school, like AP English teacher and definitely raised eyebrows, but I definitely like. Succumbed to the pressure of like, okay, well I'll double major in business econ just to like, make the perennials happy and satisfy my role as a, you know, second Chinese American child.

First, first child went, you know, computer science. So it was like, he checked the box and then, you know, second child couldn't be an English lit major solely. So I had to like double in something and then, you know, I hit, I hit like. Uh, Milton and I just threw in the towel. Oh yeah. That's where I was like, Oh no, what have I got?

So I picked up Chinese literature as like a second major cause there was like overlap with international economics. So can you tell me how you found surfing? Like did someone introduce it to you while you're in college or? Yes. Um, my first friend in college was a, um, a guy named Nathan. Became one of my best friends is my one, my best friend's oldest friends.

Um, he was from Maui and he lived down the hall from me freshman year and we just became friends and he sort of was like, one day he's like, we should get some surfboards and like find out where the surf breaks are. And that was the closest I'd ever lived to the ocean. Cause I lived inland in Arcadia. So, you know, we did that and we've found a Malibu and it was this perfect wave.

So it just kind of. It's natural. It's so fun. So for everybody listening, um, as it was explained to me, and I will totally attest this Margaret shreds, so we have a mutual close friend. And, uh, when I, before I met Margaret, um, this mutual friend said, yeah, Margaret, just like shreds, she's touched a shredder.

And so like, you're an amazing surfer, which, um, you know, is just huge. So how did you end up owning being? Yeah, so. I'm not that good. I mean, in the grand, you know, stage of surfing, I'm just kind of like a competence. Yeah. Um, she got barreled in Fiji this last year, so, you know. Okay. So go ahead. So I, you know, surfing a lot on the side during school and, uh, started got, you know, got to know some of the local.

Uh, surf club members and they invited me to join the Malibus surfing association, which is one of the longest running surf clubs in California. And slowly just got to know the members of the club. There's kind of a series of competitions that are hosted by each surf club in each area. So started doing the contest.

And then where you, in the context of competing? Yeah, I competed in the contest, you know, definitely dabbled in the like professional longboard. World for a hot minute. You know, it was never like a career, but it was an excuse to travel and it was always fun. I traveled to these exotic places and with your group of friends who are all competing and it was just a good time.

Um, but I, I got picked up by Hap Jacobs who is, uh, sort of like the Henry Ford surfboard manufacturing is like one of the original guys. Um, He picked me up as a team writer and started building me surf boards. So I became sponsored and he would give me boards to ride. And then I would sort of promote his brand.

I mean, he's such a long standing brand anyway, it didn't really take my promotion, but, um, and then, uh, he was in his seventies and he had decided one day that he was going to retire and leave the brand to his mentee. His like prodigy. Now my now husband took over the label and, um, at the time Matt was already building.

Two other legacy labels of Rick surfboards and being surfboards. And they were all being Jacobs. Rick we're all competitors in like the sixties during the golden era of longboarding. Um, so it kind of made sense. He was already building these other labels, those style of boards, and he meant, you know, happens his mentor.

So hap who's became like a grandfather to me, you know, introduced me to Matt as my new sponsor. And then, you know, at first it was kind of, yeah. A little bit of friction, cause hap was really generous with the boards didn't ever ask for any sort of accountability, like didn't ask for any money. It was just like very, very casual.

And Matt was kind of like, you know, young up and comer definitely watched his dollar was kind of like, Hey, are you gonna pay for this? Or are you going to bring in another board of trade in for this? I mean, he was definitely tightening the reins with the team. So. We were just like a bunch of spoiled kids basically.

And, um, yeah. Then we kind of hit it off and, uh, which is why our first son is named Jacob. Yeah. I mean, we, I asked if he wanted to name him hat, but we're like, well, you know, maybe we'll go with something a little more traditional. Um, were you one of the few Asian American surfers at the time? Definitely in the Malibu scene.

Yeah, there wasn't a whole lot. I mean, there was a few, but I mean, obviously surfing has its heritage in Hawaii, so there's always this like Hawaiian, um, you know, like, and, you know, there's this Hawaiian element to surfing, so there's always Asians, but you know, in the Malibu scene and the LA scene, there wasn't a ton.

Um, but there were a lot of women in the Malibu. Seen cause that way it was just attracts a lot of graceful surfers. Like my good friend, Ashley Lloyd was an amazing surfer. Carla Rolan. Who's like the queen of Malibu and, you know, um, Brittany Leonard and just Belinda bags. I mean, they were all Cassius met her.

They were all Malibu girls, you know, Julie Cox. But so the, the women, the female scene was strong. I mean, I think Asian wise, yeah, it was one of the few. What did your parents say about it? Um, I remember the day that they, you know, they, my parents are pretty reserved about, um, praise for sure. There's that they're stingy on that they're Chinese.

Uh, but just, you know, they're, they're pretty reserved about their judgment of like my choices. Um, they knew I was getting into it, but they didn't ever like express any, you know, objection about it. They just kind of knew, like I played sports. In high school and college and just needed something, you know?

So it just made sense that I was going to find something that I was into. Um, but I remember the day that I surfed a big day at Topanga Canyon and, and I can't run over really bad by guy and like split my hair, head open. It was like bleeding out of my head in the middle of winter during a big swell and had to be like, Rushed to, you know, back to UCLA, to like the urgent care and be like sewn up and had like 20 stitches in my head.

Like part of my hair got like cut off. And I mean, my mom, that was the first time she's like, are you sure surfing is, you know, what you should be doing at this? I mean, I, 21, she was telling me that, you know, you're not that young. Like can't just be getting mowed over and end up in the hospital. So. Yeah.

That was the only thing she ever said surfing. Um, yeah, Margaret and I have been mistaken for one another by other people here. So I think that that, uh, still happens and my parents were like, why are you surfing? You're going to be, I am already naturally dark. They joke that it's because I was put in an incubator when I was born, so I was born premature.

So I got an early start on a tan, so I'm super dark. And so then, you know, dark in Asian culture is usually not seen as a coveted feature. Um, even though I would go out, you know, on the West side of LA and have girls come up to me and be like, where'd you get your tantrum? I'm like, no, where else would you get it from?

Um, so my mother is very afraid that I'm going to look terrible. Soon. Um, but we both have half and half children as well. Um, what has been your experience of raising your kids and, you know, you bring a lot of Chinese culture into their lives. Like we did hot pot here. Um, I see you doing dumpling, rolling with them, you know, you're close to your family.

So, um, your au pair is a relative. So you speak Mandarin to them. Like what, what have you tried to keep and hold on to? Are there things that you do differently? Because you know, Matt's a white guy. I'm just like, my ex-husband was a white guy. So there's different cultures and ethnicities blending together.

One thing about the tan. Yeah. Just before we get into the cultural, it's funny because. My dad actually was naturally dark. He grew up on a farm in title. So I don't know if that has something to do then, but, um, so the dark, like they let me hang out in the sun till I was like purple when I was a kid. So it's funny, the tan, this didn't really bother my, my, my parents and my mom was super fair, but what's funny is like in high school I developed like a full like hunch because I was.

Like my family is quite tall for Asians. Yeah. And I just felt like I just was towering over most of my schoolmates because it was predominantly Asian. And so I developed this like weird, like slouch and someone pointed out to me, like when I was in college, like I didn't use to sit up straight. Like when my room is like, you should sit up straight and I'm like, what do you mean?

Sit up straight? Like, you're like kind of slouchy, you know? So it's funny. Like I never was like, Self-conscious about being dark. I was more self-conscious about being tall. Funny, anyways, that was just a side, but I'm going back to the cultural. Yes. I'm pretty, you know, I've always tried to like tap into that side of, you know, my culture.

It wasn't like we weren't raised as ABCs American born, trying to use in the way where, you know, my parents encouraged us to like assimilate or. You know, fit in or like blend in, you know, like we didn't have that growing up. We were very like, you know, we're Chinese. We're not like trying to, you know, force it in people's faces, but we're, this is what we do.

Like for example, we did not celebrate Christmas and it didn't matter year after year, how much we begged and begged and begged they never gave in, they never bought us a Christmas tree. We never exchanged gifts. Like. I would say 10 plus years, we begged and begged and they didn't give in. And I don't know if it was on principle or they just were like, this is just not what we do.

Well, this is not in our culture, you know? So, you know, they, they S they held fast to a lot of traditions and didn't like, buy-in, I guess, to a lot of American culture so that we could maintain that, you know, I went to Chinese school. For 10 solid years, we finally like chiseled them down to where they let us stop.

But I mean, it took a long time. We played, we took piano lessons. You know, we did all the cultural dancing and the, you know, well, am I going to come through like the whole, the Chinese calligraphy? We did the Chinese and like nodding to the Chinese speech competitions. Oh, you know, there was like a S a split second, but that was handcart everything that I was like, my mom was a Chinese speech teacher.

So the fact that I suck at it so hard. So mortifying for her. Like I just, we did the Chinese school thing too. Um, and I'm curious if part of like the not being ABC, like, cause we were, we were told to assimilate, but they specifically chose to live in a white, a predominantly white neighborhood on the West side of LA.

Even though their businesses were enrolling Heights because which was like a 45 minute drive every day. Yeah. Um, and so they didn't want us to live with all of the other Asian kids. They wanted us specifically to live on the West side. So I wonder, and then they got mad at us for like, not learning men are enough.

Like you can actually read Mandarin. I. Can identify character

Um, so I wonder if that was like, uh, you know, how far back that decisions. Yeah, that's interesting. Um, we definitely lived in a very like predominantly Chinese community. I mean, they, you know, it's like we went to the Chinese grocery store and we ate Chinese food predominantly like, you know, with the occasional, like.

You know, run to KFC or McDonald's or whatever they deemed was like American. Um, but yeah, I mean, it's a big deal for me to like, retain that for my children, because we're in a, you know, bi-cultural household and family and you know, my husband, he, um, I'm probably the first. Asian person he's ever dated. So it's not like he's, you know, cultured or, or just studied in our culture or anything like that.

And, you know, he comes, he's a surfboard builder. He's not like a, you know, he's not like an academic Dem academia guy. So, you know, it's new to him and he definitely. He isn't even a fan of Chinese food

but you know, it's like, it's important for me to like celebrate Chinese new year and, you know, have the Chinese food occasionally and like bring my kids back to where my mom lives, which is essentially Chinatown and eat, you know, ethnic food. And I even brought Jacob to Taiwan with me when he was three.

And hopefully, you know, once. People can travel openly again, we'll make the trips back there and just share that with them. You know, I mean, we're trying to do the language at home with Jacob. I, you know, first kid is just experimental, you know, and it was just so traumatic to like, get, you know, to understand what it was.

Trying to communicate with him that I, I was, I just gave up on introducing a second image, but the do-over kid, you know, the second one, I've definitely made it a priority to incorporate, you know, Chinese Mandarin into our daily lives to the point where I, you know, the, our first pair was from China.

And I said, you know, just speak Mandarin. Yeah, that's it. And then second old pair. I got lucky and my cousin was just graduating from college and. Decided to come be our au pair. So she's been with us for two years and. Same thing speaks Spanish. So Coco speaks, she understands Mandarin. She doesn't speak it so much, but I think she, she can, she just chooses.

Did they say anything ever about like the, I mean, it's just normal to them. I'm sure. Just to like, be infused with all the culture. Is there anything that you notice that's like, I mean, I noticed that. As much as I try. And I don't think I'm as good about it. And especially cause she's, you know, switching from week to week parents, parents.

So I try to make sure that she's listening to Chinese podcasts and like, I try to speak it as much as possible with her, but then I noticed she won't speak it back to me unless I specifically ask what was infuriating is that when we were living in Taiwan and I was sending her to the Montessori school there or whatever, like she didn't want to learn, it didn't want to speak it.

Like I'm sure that the staff members as kind, as they were probably like. I spoke to her in English because probably just easier at times. And then the last week before we were moving, she was like, I'm ready to learn Mandarin. And I was like,

Um, but yeah, yeah. I mean, it's that language, I don't even know. I have no idea if it'll stick, to be honest. And I think it's going to take having like a Mandarin speaking childcare person to kind of. Make it stick because I revert back to English myself, you know? I mean, I want to be able to include Matt in our discussions and it's hard, you know, it feels kind of like I'm excluding him when we speak in Mandarin and he doesn't.

No what's going on. So it is kind of tricky, but you know, whatever they absorb, they absorb at least it's something, you know, like at least my, I can feel proud that like, you know, food is a big deal. Like as long as they're not adverse to eating it, you know? I mean, I can be weird. I can totally be different.

And I'm glad that they're not afraid to try it, you know? And they keep, Jacob loves it. They both love it. Are there things that you didn't like when you were growing up being parented in that way that you've seen yourself replicate or change? I mean, I definitely find myself leaning pretty hard on, you know, a traditional public education, um, living in Leucadia, you know, there's definitely a lot of alternative ideas of what.

A child's education should be like, and I've just kind of like S S like stood firm on he's, you know, he's gonna, he's gonna assimilate to a public education. And he, you know, Jacob had the roughest time entering public school. I mean, he went to a Reggio Emilia preschool, and then even before that, he went to a like, nature based.

Uh, daycare. So he definitely went the alternative route the first few years, but then, you know, when it came time to like start real school, I just threw him into the fire, you know, and I, and he's, he had a rough, rough transition going from, you know, these kinds of alternative philosophies to this like very regimented, very academically driven and it, and I put them in a dual language program to boot.

So yeah. Here. He is like the one out of 25 kids with the one teacher, like very regimented. I mean, he wanted to, he wanted to run away from school every morning and it kind of broke my heart, you know, like I didn't either, but I, you know, just the like tiger mom and me just said, it's okay. Like we can, we can, you know, We can acclimate, like he will learn how to go to this kind of school where I think, you know, if I didn't come from that background, I might say, you know what?

This kind of program is in for him. He's he's, free-spirited he's he likes to be outdoors. He belongs in more of like a nature based kind of program. But I just, you know, I'm just Chinese and some things are hard to shake, but at the same time, I'm also. Very alternative in that every minute he spends outside of school is like in some kind of outdoor physical, you know, we do surf lessons.

We do he's at the skate camp. I mean, skate camp. That's that's as far from Asian, as you know, like I put him on a skateboard at age, like four and I put him on a surf board at 85 and, you know, I made him swim like at age two, like he, you know, he's, he's definitely. Um, blend of both worlds where I'm, I'm very focused on making him very active and very outdoorsy and making sure he stays off of the iPad.

Um, what. When you made that transition from leaving the tried and true career that you had at the big five to what it is that you're doing now, did you have feelings about it and like, or did other people have feelings about it that they expressed? Yeah, a lot, a lot of like naysayers for sure. Within my family.

I mean, you know, nothing too, like by then I was twenty-five I was an adult. I was going to make my own decisions. And I think my, my parents, you know, at the time, I mean, I. I'd already lost my dad. So he wasn't, he probably would've had a lot more to say, and he, you know, losing him kind of steered me in that direction.

I mean, my dad was an entrepreneur. I mean, he had his own business and was an immigrant trying to like make it in a new country. So, you know, it's like, I really followed his footsteps though. I think he would have like disapproved of my like choice of industries, um, because he really, you know, With my older brother, he was always very like my older brother graduated from UC Irvine with a computer science degree and went to work at IBM.

And that was like, he was a very strong proponent of that track, you know? So I graduated from UCLA, went to go work for a big five, and that was also very in line with what he expected us to do. But then, you know, he passed away suddenly in a car accident and. It kind of like made like shook me, like, what am I doing?

You know, like I'm, I'm working this job, but I'm like sneaking out to surf, you know, day, or like trying to surf at Dawn and walking into corporate meetings with water coming out of my nose, wet hair. And you know, like people would all, all the time, like clients, or like fellow consultants would say. You are really out of place, like, is this really what you want to be doing?

And I'm like, I don't know what I want to be doing. You know, this is just what I think I'm supposed to be doing. Um, so that kinda made me change gears. And I started to prep to go to business school because you know, grad school is the answer to like switching careers. And then my, um, my GMAT prep. Teacher Charles.

I mean, I still keep inducted them. It's like, he, I was like in this like group, this like lecture hall, he was like really fascinated with me because I was like, well, I'm going to go get a business degree. I'm going to go get an MBA, but I'm going to go into the surf industry after that. And he's like, You're going to get an MBA to go to this or do you need it?

You know? And he's like just, just CA and he kinda was like, I mean, I'm going to prep you for the GMAT, but you should just go into the surf industry if you want to go into the surf industry. And I was like, well, shoot. I mean, I he's like why spend, you know, 200 grand on an MBA? When you have an opportunity to go into the surf board industry, you should just do it.

So he got. Almost inadvertently talked me out of going to business school. And then when, you know, like what, and I recognize that, I mean, it was a business consultant. So I spent Fridays working from home, which really meant working for mats factories so that we could hang out because I traveled Monday through Thursday.

So I'd hang out with him on Fridays. I'd do my, you know, a few conference calls and do a little bit of work and then we'd hang out and I'd just see like, Wow. You, you really could use like some improvements around here. I mean, for starters, you could she get a computer? I mean, I don't, I don't know what you're doing like for bookkeeping.

And he would show me this cardboard box with like all these papers and phoned us. I got, I've got these invoices here and I pick them up and they're all handwritten. I'm like, Oh, that works. But you know, I'm like, You have 10 surfboards on here, but you only have nine prices. So you, you missed one, you know, like they're a thousand dollars, you probably shouldn't miss.

So it was kind of like, well, we'll get you a computer. And then I'm like, I'll get you the software it's called QuickBooks, you know? And I would set it up for him and he's like, well, I don't know how to use it. I mean, he's like, can you just, do you want to, just so I S he's like, do you want to do it? And so that just kind of led to.

I took a sabbatical from consulting. I couldn't just like die. You know what I mean? I took a sabbatical. I helped Matt out for like, I think it was only like a matter of weeks. It was like five weeks in to helping him out. He then like, he then like proposed, we go to like Cabo or something that weekend to go surf.

There was a good swell coming. Let's go to Cabo. And I'm like, just let's we're just going to go like today. I'm like, if we didn't even buy tickets, he's like, we'll just buy tickets now. Like for two days, two days from now. And he's like, yeah, sure. Like where are we going to stay? He's like, we'll find somewhere.

So we like go to Cabo, we serve our brains out. We come back and then, you know, two weeks later he was like, you want to go to Costa Rica like next month? And like, this is what you, you don't have to request time off. You don't have to like notify him, me to just like bail and go surfing. He's like, yeah, yeah, this is what we do.

And he's like, next year we should go to this, you know, this place in Fiji, I love called Tavarua and I'm like, You're just going to go to feel like you've already, we've already been surfing, you know, on these trips for like, we've probably been gone like five weeks already and we're just going to go on another one.

And he's like, why not? You know? And it was just like so foreign to be able to just do whatever you want whenever you want. We would roll up to the factory at nine and then we would grab our surfboards and then we would drive to the beach because the factory was two blocks from the beach. And go surfing and then we'd come back and like grab lunch and then we would start working at like one o'clock and then, I mean, we didn't have kids then.

So we were just like working from one to eight and then we would go have dinner. And then, I mean, it was just unbelievable, like the flexibility, the like ease the casualness. I mean, nobody's keeping track of you. Nobody's like, you know, keeping tabs or. Asking where you've been. And it was just incredible.

So, I mean, the alert was just so strong that I, I bailed on feel happier. Oh my gosh. It was the best decision ever. I mean, I don't even know who I would have, could have been. I don't even know who that person was honestly. Like, I, I, I discovered myself when I made that decision. I, I, I, I like decided on my own path, basically, you know, I think that you see your brother's path as like the path you could have taken and you see, like, do you ever observe that?

I feel like there are several I've I'm the oldest of four. And, um, you know, one of my brothers is a lawyer and other one is like a designer. Um, my sister is now getting her PhD and all of them pursuing paths that were the ones that, you know, My parents, I think would have preferred that I pursued as well.

Yeah. But yeah, I mean, I could have easily just stuck to stuck to the traditional path. I mean, for my brother, I think it's just more fitting for his personality, but for me, you know, I just always, probably always had a little more of my dad and me like gonna blaze my own, you know, he left his, he was like the eighth of like 10 kids and he just.

Left his home country left his town, just like went to America to like find his own deal, you know? And I mean, that's pretty ballsy. So I mean, I jumping ship and going into the surf industry probably wouldn't have surprised my dad, even though he probably would have like disapproves. Can I ask you about like, because your dad passed away unexpectedly and I don't think, um, Asian families.

Well, we don't talk about feelings and we don't, um, share in a lot of that kind of support if there's like grief or whatnot. It's like, they're weird. I mean, maybe that was just my family dynamic. I feel like, you know, my watching my dad and his siblings and like just the lack of connection support was hard.

Um, so do you feel like, um, I mean, just how did you guys handle that grief? Yeah. I mean, pretty, you think standard. Of bury it down and keep it

pretty, pretty standard. I think when it comes to Chinese cultural, uh, dealing with emotional distress, um, you know, my brothers, I, I, you know, we did what was our duty, you know, we moved home, you know, we took care of business for my mom. We took care of. The estate and we took care of, you know, issues that arose.

So she didn't have to feel like burden, you know, cause she had, she hadn't worked in years and to lose, you know, the, the breadwinner and the has the, her husband and like the man of the house. But my little brother was also only 14 and I really stepped in to sort of be the other parent for him. And that was a big deal for me.

Like I felt like I had to do that otherwise. He was in such a critical time in his life that I was worried he'd veer off, but we didn't, you know, it's like we never sat down with the family and like talked about it or moved to grief counseling or none of that. I mean, we just kind of like did what was necessary to move forward.

How old were you at the time? I was 25. Yeah. My little brother is 14. Yeah. My older brother is 26. Um, he lived in the Bay area, so it wasn't as. He wasn't as quick to move home. Cause he's had his life up there. So I moved home and kinda held down the Fort when to, you know, the parent teacher conferences, like my mom had to navigate like, you know, teacher like school and my little brother wasn't doing great.

So he was kind of floundering a little bit. So I just kinda served as that served in that role for him and, you know, trying to do the things. Not that our dad would have done with them, like bring him to Laker games, but just trying to like give them some sort of childhood that he wouldn't look back on and feel like he missed out because his dad wasn't around, you know, so brought him, brought them on a surf trip with me one time to Hawaii to do a contest at Queens.

Wow. That was fine. He was 11. No, no, I'm sorry. He was like, Oh, he was younger. Now, this was before my dad passed. Yeah. So he was younger. It was like 11, but just brought or do stuff. And I became really close because of it. That's nice. Um, so Margaret was featured in surfer magazine, um, before the doors of the publication shuttered on the last publication.

Um, but it wasn't. A wonderful article about surfing and motherhood and you know how to now yet, I mean, motherhood is hard enough as it is. And, um, building, I mean, you've run two businesses essentially, and with being in the retail shop. So like, um, and then she was also, I found this out before we jumped on this recording, um, potentially the first woman ever to surf in Taiwan, the first woman to stand up on a board.

You want to tell that story? Yeah, no, I was just, you know, we would, we would go back and visit my grandmother and my mom's side of the family and occasional my dad's side of the family every few years. And I remember, uh, it was like, I think it was right after I graduated from UCLA and it was sort of my last trip before I had to go into the working world.

Um, went to Taiwan for the summer, took like a road trip down to condemning in the South of the Island. And, you know, it was kind of like, this is an Island. There's gotta be surf here. I mean, there's gotta be surf somewhere. It wasn't there weren't there weren't surfers. I mean, you didn't see surf shops, you didn't see any like REM like semblance of surfing as though we're down and condemned for like, uh, we took like the tour bus down there, you know, the overnighter and we, um, we ended up getting a place in this.

We were on the beach and across the street was this like, It said surf hostel. And I was like, what is this surf? So, you know, we got a broom in there and, uh, I walk across the street and the owner, um, everyone called him. like, brother, number two. I don't know why he was kind of like this older dude. And he was out surfing this little right-hander and he was the only person that surfing everybody was just kind of on the beach under major umbrellas.

Like people want it to be on the beach, but they didn't want to be in the sun. So. We were just hanging out in the sun. I was like, I'm going to walk over there to that point and ask him if I could, you know, catch a ride on his board. So whenever there was writing, I remember he was writing a McTavish surf board, Australian made surfboard, and he was walking up the beach with it and I said, Hey, I'm I'm, you know, can I, can I take your board out for a few waves in Mandarin?

And he's like, You can serve. And I was like, yeah, yeah. And he's like, where are you from? And I was like, I'm from California. He was like, okay. So he like, let's be take his surfboard out. And literally there's not one soul surfing. There's no board or just not even anybody in the water. I mean, um, and he, he likes watched me on the beach catching a couple of ways.

And then like I came in and he says, you're the first girl I've ever seen right away. Like on your feet, like there's bookie borders, like, cause the, um, Quite a few Japanese surfers were traveling to Taiwan occasionally. So they, he was getting, um, surf travelers just from Japan, but he said the girls were all boogie boards.

Um, so he'd never seen a girl actually brightest, right. A surf board. So then the next day he's like, I'll take you to another break on the other side of the peninsula. So he took me to this spot called jealous way, and I just had a blast. It was like Santa and it was so fun. So it was interesting, like it was like a three-day trip and I got to serve two sessions and then, you know, went back to Taipei where my family's from and then went back to the U S and then 10 years later after I'd, you know, started running, being surfboards with my husband.

Um, we were selling surfboards in Taiwan to a couple shops and. They were organizing, they said the Chinese, the Taiwanese government gave them, uh, like a grant to, um, for this magazine. They were starting and they were, they wanted to do a story on, you know, my husband, me, like are, they said, bring a team writer.

We're also gonna invite, um, the Wagoner brothers, Tom and John. It was so random. So it was Tom, John Wagner. Uh, me, Matt and our team writer, crystal Mauro. And we all went to Taiwan and stayed at my grandma's house for like a night and then drove out to the coast and like toward, with this group of like surfers, like the editor of the surf magazine, they also had a, um, Uh, notable like a couple of notable actors who were surfers like, um, who I became friends with and I'm still friends with, um, his name's Yan hall.

He kind of is like the, um, the like famous symbol of surfing and in the Taiwanese, like, uh, You know, celebrity scene or something. So, um, we went all over and I went, we went back down to condemning and we went to ergos hostel. I had a photo of me and him on the wall from like 10 years ago. And he, I was like, do you remember me?

And he's like, yeah, like you're the first girl who served in Taiwan. So that's cool. It was, yeah. And then we went to a school down there and kind of like introduce ourselves. It was really, it was cool just to. Go full circle with like my culture, my family's culture, and like bring it all back. And I just, the Taiwan's I've been there several times and scored it.

So, yeah, I mean, I don't know if anybody knows this, if you haven't been to Taiwan, but it looks a lot like Hawaii and a lot of places. Um, I was asked to go on a travel article there to cover their national pastime at the time, which was cycling. Um, so I unexpectedly ended up writing. Like 45 miles in one day without having been on a road bike in like 10 years or so.

Yeah, they, the. Race organizers because they held these reporters from the United States go over there. And, you know, we had like more than them. I haven't been on a bike in like a really long time. And so like, I had to go buy like shoes, like not clipping shoes or whatever, just like some sneakers. So I wasn't expecting to do this.

So like I wrote the thing and they had like, you know, pit stops along the way. So you get snacks and like water or whatever. And I just kept thinking if I stop, I'm never going to get back on this bike. So I'm not going to stop. So just kept going. Yeah. And, you know, 45 miles later, I get off at that final stuff.

Cause I was like, yeah, now I think I'm done. Cause it was supposed to go 65 miles. I was supposed to go like, you know, I got off and then someone saw my number. He's like, Oh my God, everybody's been looking for you. We've been searching for you for the past few hours. Like we thought you were down on a wasn't checking in, in the pit stops.

I guess it was crazy. But, um, Taiwan is beautiful. Now the surf scene is definitely much more prominent and popular. It's funny because I do remember there were beaches. Um, you know, cause we had only moved back from Taiwan like I two years ago. Um, But that there are cordoned off sections of the ocean that you're allowed to like go swim in.

It's like a small little square or rectangle. And then if you go beyond that, then the lifeguards get mad at you. So, um, if you are going to do it, you have to be on a boogie board or some sort of thing to be in the water. But I just remember that it was such a contentious moment with, you know, my marriage.

Wasn't doing great at that time already, but you know, my ex husband is white man, and I, I got to see what it's like to grow up in two different cultures. I got to see what it's like to be raised. With a collectivist understanding of you follow the rules and you do whatever the greater good tells you to do.

And then the very Western I'm going to do whatever I want to do, because you're not going to tell me what to do. So like the frustration that I experienced from him of feeling like completely confined all the time, uh, to having to do these things, it was just so interesting to see, um, how, you know, like it was difficult for me because I felt like I was trying to straddle.

Two different wants, you know, like the want of respecting the mother culture that like we were in. And then also at the time, like trying to be in a marriage with like someone who didn't grow up with those understandings and who grew up with a very different understanding of like, you make yourself known you, like, you know, um, blaze room.

Yeah. You blaze your own trail. And it's interesting in Taiwan, um, surf or going on the beach and in the ocean only it become legal, like. You know, within the last two decades. And because before that, you know, there was always this constant threat of China and like being an Island, the military policed, the beaches.

So people really couldn't go on the beaches or they could only go in like very limited designated areas and they could definitely not go in the water. So in, in the tradition of that, when they all started allowing people to go on the beaches in the water, wherever. If there was a hurricane coming, they went back and police those, those beaches, like very strictly, and it's illegal to be in the water during like a window before the hurricane up until we know after the hurricane to the point where there's like a police officer, you know, walking up and down the sand, making sure that nobody's surfing.

How did you catch swell then during storms? So I know which is interesting because I mean, the first time I went there, I remember surfing small waves. Fine. But the second, the trip that we went there with the group for the magazine, it's like these double back-to-back hurricanes were coming and there was all this talk about, you know, getting this big swell on this big wave spot.

But we, you know, we had to go at dark paddle out and like be out of the water by like the time the cops showed up in the military showed up. So, I mean, inherently like surfing, being such a Western. Sport is already sort of like a rule, like, you know, these like Renegade mentality, which is very contradicted of, you know, the culture there.

So it's, it's interesting to see the, like the two collide, the two cultures collide and yeah, sure enough. We snuck out they're in the dead of dark. I mean, it was creepy. You know, finally, like it got light enough and it was huge. And, you know, we got the waves and then we had to like split and man at one point, like we had to like run, you know, cause the cops showed up and it was like, they'll take it.

You. And it was even after the, you know, even like the following day, once the hurricane or the typhoon hit. I mean it was unsearchable, but then the day after that, we tried to go out to like catch the tail end. And it was literally like ankle slappers, like, it was so small, but the cops were still policing and they were like, Nope, can't go in the water.

We're like, it is literally a Lake out there. No, one's drowning in this, but they're like, Nope. It's still in the window. Like you can not go up there. So it's really interesting. That's really funny because one of the jokes that, um, my ex-husband had developed was the cross arms. Well, yeah, you like cannot.

There's like no option. Um, so as we wrap up this interview, um, one of the questions that I ask everybody is in this idea of like, fuck saving face and, you know, creating a new definition of what it means to be Asian-American here in the U S today, or, you know, for next generations. What would you say is something that you wish would change or anything that you feel like you would just like to shine light on?

I think what I wish for, for say my kids and their generation is that instead of feeling like. The two cultures are at odds with each other and constantly feeling you have to choose one or the other in whatever circumstance you're in that they feel like they're just able to take the best of both and like cafeteria.

Yeah. Where they're just like, I'm going to take the best thing from the, you know, Asian culture and the best thing from this American culture and melded into like their own deal and, and be accepted for it, you know, and just be, not feel like they're always living. Under a cloud of expectation, you know, culturally, I mean, it's, it's going to be inevitable that they're going to have to live with sort of like the parental expectation, you know, of what we feel strongly about, but to not feel the additional burden of like the cultural expectation, you know, I mean, it's, it's ironic because as like a surf family that is.

In the surf industry. I mean, that industry comes with a certain amount of like, uh, what's the word I'm looking for? Like, there's, there's definitely these elements in our industry. That's like, You know, weed smoking surfer loafers that are just like cruising around trying to get ways and not really being really responsible Peter pans.

And I mean, it's not it's, those are stereotypes obviously, but like Spicoli fast times. Hi. Um, you know, it's like, I almost feel like I need to like, make sure I counter that for them so that they do remember that like, Oh, we're, you know, we're business people. We're not just like surfers, you know, In business, we're business, people who are surfers and ingrain that like work ethic in them that maybe lost in the like, Cruisy casualness of our community, which I love.

It's just, you know, want them to have drive too. So, um, I don't know if that answers your question. That's great because I feel like, um, I now have a lot of friends who have half and half children so that when my daughter goes out yeah, That she sees people who look like her. And so she'll have people who have like similar cultural upbringings because they will have also been straddling like, you know, two different cultures and stuff.

So that's really great. Um, one bonus question that I forgot to ask was, um, when you decided to marry Mt or to be with Matt, did your mom have anything to say about the fact that he is like not Asian? Um, No. And like I said, I was really lucky and I feel like my mom has reserved a lot of judgment over the years, just knowing that I have a fairly like strong personality and I'm just kind of gonna do what I want to do anyway, you know?

So it was like, it didn't matter if she wanted to express any disapprovals. So she was always very reserved, but yeah, she didn't, she wasn't like, I didn't sense any disapproval from her at all, but I, you know, I'd already dated. I mean, I dated my, you know, Asian guys before, but, you know, I dated, uh, Caucasians and Hispanics and like, you know, so she already knew that it wasn't, it wasn't going to be, you know, really like strong chance, but not going to be an Asian that I was going to marry.

Um, yeah, it, it was, she was, she really, everybody liked Matt. I mean, that's very likable, so it's, she was just happy that. I'd found, you know, my person and my calling and, you know, he came as a package deal. Like he was, had a business that, you know, was he was going to incorporate me in and he also offered me a place to live in, in exchange for like the.

You know, the drop in salary I was going to take. So, I mean, he pretty much like came as a package deal. That was like, yeah. You know, if I was going to go do that life, I mean, he made it, you know, very appealing, very ready to like, I wasn't gonna have to struggle, you know? So she, she was just happy that I was happy and was taken care of.

You know, the one thing I will say about, um, what I do hope for the next generation is I definitely hope that my, like my kids. Feel comfortable talking about emotional and mental distress, because I think as a generation they're already going to have to deal with a lot more anxiety and cause the COVID and everything, everything.

I mean, there's just, everything's just so fast now. And so like immediately. And so, you know, online that I think they, that generation is gonna have to deal with coping with stuff much more than our dinner. We just kind of buried our heads in the sand. And like, if you didn't. Pull up the internet or the news.

You weren't really that troubled, but they are going to just be bombarded with it at all, all the time. So I, I hope that they don't feel the same kind of limitation with talking about it with us and feeling like they can come to us for the support they need instead of, you know, Doing drugs or drinking or like worse, you know?

Great. Yeah, I think so. Cause I think that that authoritarian, um, parenting style, if you have all these expectations of how someone's supposed to be, then they can veer very far in the other direction and just hide it from you, which, um, is something that, you know, I mean, in my own experience, I was like, Yep.

Never gonna tell them anything. Never. I mean, even as adults too, like, you know, I would like to foster a different kind of relationship, but sometimes I just know if I bring up this, then these responses are going to happen. So it's going to just gonna be easier if I just say it's all good. Everything's cool.

So like, yeah, you're totally right. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for your time. And, um, I will include links for if anybody wants to follow up with Margaret and, um, her surfer magazine article. And just so you can learn more about being, um, I was lucky enough to get a custom made board from Matt for my birthday, for my friends.

So that was a surprise and I screamed in utter delight. Thank you. Thank you.