EPISODE 65: FIGHTING RACISM WITH SARA & MISASHA, CO-HOSTS OF THE DEAR WHITE WOMEN PODCAST

Sep 24

MEET SARA BLANCHARD & MISASHA SUZUKI

The co-hosts of the award-winning social justice podcast, "Dear White Women," and authors of the book, "Dear White Woman: Let's get (Un)comfortable talking about racism", are also Japanese-American biracial mothers raising diverse and conscious children.

Misasha Suzuki Graham graduated from Harvard and Columbia College Law. For 15 years, she's been a practicing litigator who is passionate about diversity, equity, & inclusion.

Sara Blanchard also graduated from Harvard, and is a facilitator, TEDx speaker, writer, and consultant. She helps build community and connection through conscious conversations.

Web site: www.dearwhitewomen.com/

Facebook: www.facebook.com/dearwhitewomenpodcast/

Instagram: www.instagram.com/dearwhitewomenpodcast/

Twitter: www.twitter.com/dwwpodcast

Takeaways

This week’s interview is with Sara Blanchard and Misasha Suzuki, the phenomenal co-hosts of the award-winning “Dear White Women” podcast —they’ve recently launched a level-setting anti-racism book, the goal of which is to get white people (particularly white women) to talk about the history of racism in America and take action! With guests like the renowned Dr. Shefali Tsabary, radical empathy expert Terri Givens, and author Qian Julie Wang on their show, these women and mothers are diving deep into powerful conversations with thought leaders, activists, and more, as they endeavor to change the world for their children and beyond.

In our conversation, we explore what it’s like being biracial as both of them are of mixed white and Japanese heritage, the life-changing value of being seen by those around us, and how Sara and Misasha’s lives have changed since meeting at Harvard.

We also explore:

Transcript

Judy Tsuei 0:00

Welcome to the first interview episode of season two. I am beyond grateful and honored that when I reached out to the CO hosts of the podcast dear white women, Sarah and me, Sasha were so excited about joining me in today's conversation.

Before we dive in, let me tell you a little bit more about them. And the fact that they just published their book, also called dear white women, I ordered an advanced copy. It's beautifully designed and you'll hear a lot about the book in today's interview. So massager Suzuki gram is a graduate of Harvard College and Columbia Law School and she has been a practicing litigator for over 15 years.

Both of these women are extremely passionate about diversity, equity, and inclusion and specifically with Natasha in the legal profession as well as her own communities. She's a facilitator, writer and speaker regarding issues about racial justice and children, because you'll hear her speak about how she's married to her black husband. She has children who are made of different ethnicities, and then how to help navigate and have those honest and often imperfect conversations. She lives in the Bay Area with her family, and as she calls it, a largely indifferent cat.

Now Sarah Blanchard helps build community and connection through conscious conversations as a facilitator, TEDx speaker, writer and consultant. So she also graduated from Harvard, and you'll hear how the two women connected when they were in college. And then she went to work at Goldman Sachs. And she's pursued science and techniques of well being as a certified life coach, author of two books, so they're both the co author of dear white women, let's get uncomfortable talking about racism. And then for Sarah, also flex mom. And this social justice podcast that they have is, you know, you'll hear me say to them, I don't know how you guys have the time to do all of this research, and then have these incredibly thoughtful conversations with our guests with each other.

She's married to a white Canadian man, and she has two white presenting girls, she really encourages them to be compassionate and thoughtful advocates for whatever it is that they're passionate about. They live in Denver, Colorado, and they have an incredibly lovable dog is what they say.

So in today's conversation, we'll dive deep into personal stories into their professional work, and how we can work together as a community, whatever culture ethnicity, you know, however you identify in the world, how are you present to not avoid these awkward conversations? And instead come from our lived experience? How can we become closer to the people who are in our network? How can we help heal, you know, stories from our families of origin? How do we move forward and help our children navigate the world as they're living and growing into it? I hope that you get a lot out of today's conversation.

Please do go check out their podcasts. They've interviewed everyone from Dr. Shefali Sabari. To You know, incredible social justice advocates. They actually recommended a book during this podcast episode which I started listening to called beautiful country, and it's been lovely so far. Without further ado, let's dive in.

Welcome to the fuck saving face podcast. I'm your host, Judy Sway. And together we'll explore mental and emotional health for Asian Americans and beyond all by breaking through taboo topics, like may not always be pretty, but it is indeed beautiful. Let's make your story beautiful today.

Welcome back to the flex saving face podcast. I'm very excited because I have two incredible women here today, Sarah and Sasha and the CO hosts of the dear white women podcast. When I first started listening to the podcast, I was like, how do they have the time to do all this historical research? Well, that's like contemporary knowledge.

They're both mothers, you know, the whole shebang. But I'm gonna turn it over to you both because I also just want you to put in your own words like you know, how you came about creating this idea, and how you got to where you are now because I want more people to listen to this since season two of this podcast is more about moving towards bridging those cultural divides and really starting to bring in other voices that can complement not just highlighting AAPI voices, but anybody else who's just doing work to kind of create the world that we want to live in that we want our children to live in. So I will turn it over to either one of you, whoever wants to chime in first, to get the conversation started.

Unknown Speaker 4:34

I love that you said it's about bridging the gaps because I feel like as a biracial woman, you know, I'm the daughter of a really tall blond haired, blue eyed white waspy New Englander and a Japanese immigrant mother and was I feel like I grew up in my DNA having to bridge cultures and bridge conversations and different sides of things. And so, you know my background really briefly, I was in finance living in Tokyo and in Hong Kong. For a while, and then my dad who I loved very, very dearly, passed away pretty suddenly. And it sort of shook me out of the golden handcuffs and into the stuff I loved, which is life coaching and positive psych. And how do we help humans thrive, which is why I'm super psyched to be here in this conversation, but me Sasha and I met over 21, I said over just about 25 years ago, wow.

Unknown Speaker 5:19

And we were walking out of a racial identity conversation. So it's funny that here we are years and decades later, two and a half years into our own show and platform and conversations around racial and social justice.

Unknown Speaker 5:32

I am married to a white Canadian guy and have white presenting daughters just for the context of this conversation. But in terms of how we showed up here, you know, how we I for you know, bridge the gap between life coaching and wellness and justice, I think I really want to turn it over to me, Sasha, because she's incredible, and has the personal side of the story.

Unknown Speaker 5:53

No, right back at you. So I'm me, Sasha, the second half of the dry women podcast duo. I'm also biracial, the daughter of a Japanese immigrant father, and a white mother. And, you know, I grew up in Los Angeles and split a lot of my time with Tokyo. So to me, it was very natural, that everyone just had another country, you know, that they were dealing with, right? Like we were very Japanese in a lot of ways at home. And then you know, I would go to school, or do ballet or be in completely American circles.

Judy Tsuei 9:35

you've had incredible guests on your podcast. So since you began the podcast, you know, what are some of the kind of lessons and insights that you've gleaned along the way has there been a common narrative or have you seen the impact that you're making? I'm going to tease like the book that we'll talk about to you both published a book recently. But yeah, is there something that you've gleaned along the way that you feel like has really struck a chord with people, or you've seen as an impact in real life.

Unknown Speaker 10:07

Yes, I mean, I think I love the in terms of the impact, right? I think when anytime we talk about making change, you've got the internal work, like the bottom up change that we're all making in our own spheres of influence. And then you have the top down structural like, do we have all the support systems and things out there in the world in our society to make those changes? And I think we largely lean into the bottom up, like, what are the things that each one of us can do and look inwards at. And so the comments we get back from listeners and followers has been incredibly meaningful, we've seen people advocate for policy change, because of something they learned on our show, we've seen people bring our content to school districts, and, and help teach things. And so that's incredibly meaningful.

Unknown Speaker 10:50

But I think the biggest trend that we have seen is that there seems to be this divide. I'm curious if you recognize this in any of the conversations you have to but between people who aren't willing to acknowledge the struggles we all have as humans, right, and want to pursue money and power and blindly go for that, and buy into the systems as they exist. And then the people who are leaning into wellness and introspection and questioning the status quo and figuring out what we need for each of us as humans to thrive, and what are the things we can do to support our communities.

Unknown Speaker 11:22

And so I think as we've gone, we've been really fortunate to have so many incredible guests who lean into that second way of thinking and looking at the world. And yet we always in any of these, like works that are contentious, right? I mean, our show is called dear white women, we're not shying away from the topic, just like your show, right? Like, you're not messing around.

Unknown Speaker 11:42

But it is very heart LED. And so but but because of the name, we definitely get people who are not willing to engage or who that scares and are recoiling at just the mere mention of the name or naming what the problems might be. And so it's great to have that push back. Because I think it reinforces for us that the people that we attract that the conversations we have mirror the way that we hope to offer this conversation which is in a compassionate, welcoming, empowering way where we can all make a difference in our own spheres of influence. We have to just be continuously intentional with how we live our life.

Judy Tsuei 12:20

Yeah, I think that, you know, when I was a yoga teacher, one of the things that we learned was you have to meet people where they are. And instead of getting angry about it or upset, like Okay, so here's how you're presenting. Now how can I show up with all of my truths and honesty's and, and all of that in, in the interview with the public policy expert, who I just spoke with, at the very end of the show, when I asked him that question that I asked every guest like, what would you say flex saving face about He's like, I think it's time to acknowledge that you are not white, like so many people have continued to have that illusion that like, if I just do it perfect enough, then I will get there somehow.

And even just him putting that into words like it was great, because, you know, I feel like over the last few years, that's been my journey of realizing like, Oh, shit, I'm not white. Like, and I am, you know, in my early 40s. So it's been that long for me to come to that realization. And for me, who's someone who's done all the introspective, you know, meditations and self healing and all of that kind of stuff. So I think that this journey that and the conversations that you're having, is a great challenge. And I think you also you alluded to the fact of a lot of people don't have these conversations. It's too scary. It's too awkward.

And one of my friends who is a white woman who grew up in New York, she asked me the other day when all of the Asian hate crimes were ramping up and stuff. She's like, how are you doing? And I was just kind of telling her my feedback. And she's like I said, I think you're the only person who's really asked me that, like, forthright, just like, how are you doing about this? And she's like, I'm sorry, what? Like, aren't all of your friends? Wait? I mean, you live in North County of San Diego. I'm like, yeah, and she's like, so none of the other friends have asked you. I'm like, Well, I mean, like, you know, I don't think we're taught to how to have the words have uncomfortable conversations, just even like in your own personal relationships. How often are you taught, like, if I'm angry, or if I'm upset, here are tools and tactics and words I can use to have a conversation with someone else, so that they will hear me or I can ask an in non offensive way, potentially, so that they won't be defensive, like these are, you know, social skills. So I think when you're talking about the ground up, that's such a great way to look at it.

And I'm curious, because both of you are biracial, and then you're creating multiracial family dynamics. Is this something that you talk about in your families as well?

Unknown Speaker 14:36

All the time, I think, I think it's kind of I mean, my husband doesn't know this. And I don't think he'll listen to this show. But I use him as my example for what white men might think all the time. And it's terrible, because I mean, he's also Canadian, so I know he didn't grow up in the system, but he shows up in this world as a white, heterosexual male, and so I love bouncing ideas around with him all the time. But and then in terms of raising the kids in ways of being more sort of engaging in critical thinking and understand the basic history, absolutely all the time. Yeah, I

Unknown Speaker 15:09

would say, starting from my very first, you know, days of dating my husband like race has always been a topic of discussion. And you know, to your earlier point about, we are not white, you know, he has said to me, yeah, massage like I, it doesn't matter how many white people I work with how many white people I hang around with, like, in the end, I'm still black, like, I am still black, I can do all the things and I will still be black. And fundamentally, that is my truth. And so it's like, Yeah, no, you're right.

Unknown Speaker 15:41

And I think that raising boys who are black, Japanese, and white, you know, I want them to be proud of who they are and how they show up. And so it is a constant conversation sometimes, and I mess up a lot. I should be I should start there. I mess up a lot when we have these conversations, because I know like, sometimes the entry and sir and I've heard this recently, you know, where people are, like, I'm not sure what to say to this person, you know, to your point about people not asking right about the anti Asian hate crimes and how you were doing.

Unknown Speaker 15:41

People are like, I don't know what to say that I think that it's tough. It's messy, but just recognizing humanity, you know, and others and checking in to see if someone's Okay, like, yeah, you know, and if you mess up, it's fine, you know, it, we, we will mess up, we will, we will and for me, like super type A, like trained very early on to try and be perfect, right? Like messing up is really, really hard for me to do. And it's taken a long time. And I'm still not very good at owning some of it. But you know, it's something we need to do so we can get into these conversations.

Unknown Speaker 16:49

When you said that about people asking, you know, I had shared a story because I was asked by one guy, a white guy who have done racial justice work how I was doing after the Atlanta shootings, too. And it was the moment that like, brought my two identities crashing together. And that was when I switched my language from I'm half Japanese half white, to I am biracial. Like I am fully white, and I am fully Asian, like I'm able to exist in those worlds, because I understand that I don't only partially know my mom's culture, like I speak the language. I know the food like, right, I've been in it.

Unknown Speaker 17:17

And so, but when I shared that story in a white book club recently, like, people were like, I was didn't wasn't that offensive, that they asked you how you were doing? Like they would have wanted to they're not? Well, a lot of white people aren't asked about their Scottish heritage, or they're like, they're not asked, and so they were like, I wouldn't have wanted to expose my heritage. Whereas whether it's because we look different, or whether it's because we're more recent immigrants compared to white people who may have emigrated to this country, like a century ago.

Unknown Speaker 17:18

But that seems like an uncomfortable conversation. And one of the people in the group said, I asked, but my friends said, like you, oh, I don't really consider myself Asian. I'm like, I really feel like I'm more white. Like it was a very interesting dynamic. So she's like, Did I mess up? Should I have not asked? And so I wonder about, you know, how well we need to know people before we ask them and connect with them on a humanity level, right? Like, it would be kind of weird if someone you totally didn't know very well, that was a colleague, maybe sort of asked, but I think it's it speaks to the messiness of it, and the many interpretations of it. But I know from my experience being asked it, it certainly made a difference. Like someone saw me.

Judy Tsuei 18:26

Yes. And I think that being seen and being heard, that's definitely become a theme that's very present in like my personal life right now. And how do you explain to somebody else, the ways in which you want to be seen and heard if you haven't had the luxury of being asked before, or you've tried your life to not do that, and actually do the opposite of that. And I think it's actually your ability to say that it's going to be messy. I feel like sometimes people just need to hear that out loud. Like just to give permission to like, it's okay, if you're sad right now, or it's okay, if this is going to be like this, like, oh, there's nothing wrong with me that I'm going through this or that I'm going to make mistakes. I mean, like, we were raised in Asian cultures that like, No, you do not make mistakes, especially not publicly and especially not to offend somebody else. Like, that is a huge focus.

I'm curious, too, you know, when you said that you make mistakes and you have these I think sometimes people also need to hear what the actual questions are that you're asking or, or what the sentence stems are. So what are some of the conversations that you've had with your husband and your boys that's, you know, that if I were a fly on the wall, what are some of the questions?

Unknown Speaker 19:27

Well, so first of all, we use a tool in our house, we notice a lot of stuff, right? We notice, like I noticed that we've watched a lot of, you know, like NBA, right? But we don't watch the W NBA at home. Like why is that? Right? Like it's more sort of question oriented. But but there's a lot of times I make mistakes when I don't know the answer, right? And I think that's when a lot of times people we as humans want to know the answer, right? And I think we grew up where You are expected to know the answer. And if you don't know the answer, there's something wrong.

Unknown Speaker 20:04

And I think a lot of the questions around race and history or like how we got, you know, from point A to point B? I don't know. Right. And, and a lot of it, we weren't taught in schools. And so a lot of it is this discovery journey that we go on, you know, that we're trying to educate ourselves, but kids will ask questions, you know, and and they will ask, like, my older son, after George Floyd was murdered, he, you know, asked this, I told him that this black entertainer had died. It was later on several months later, he's like, oh, was he killed by a white person? Because don't white people, kill black people. And I was like, okay, like, I am not prepared to have this conversation in the way that I think, is not going to traumatize my kid. But clearly, he's thinking about this. And this is a concern of his so how do I honor this? And, you know, I was like, yes, sometimes that is true. And that, you know, has to do with a lot of things, including racism.

Unknown Speaker 21:04

But you know, and to really answer your question, I need to go look up some stuff. And let's go look at it together, right? Because we have a lot of books, and we look at books as a tool, but it is, those are really tough questions, or, you know, when the anti Asian hate crimes were really bad and prevalent, and my dad lives in Los Angeles, and I was really concerned for him, right? Because my dad will go out to the supermarket, you know, in largely white areas, just like, and he's, you know, kind of a tall guy, but I was just, I was really concerned for him. And I never thought, you know, I'd be in the position, as I'm sure we all felt right to be that afraid for our parents.

Unknown Speaker 21:43

And I was telling because my older son was like, why are you you know, upset or something? It's like, I'm really worried about grandpa. And then he was like, oh, because we were talking about it a little bit. And he's like, Oh, are you gonna be okay? Are you gonna be safe? And you know, those are those moments where I'm just like, oh, now like, What? What do I say? And I can't give a quick answer. It's not a quick answer thing. And I think sometimes we want the quick answer we want to you know, to check off the box and like done with that conversation. But it's not right. It's, it's, it's all the stuff we didn't learn all the stuff that we're not prepared for in the moment. And sometimes we do have to slow down and take those moments and say, like, uh, you know, this is a really great question.

Unknown Speaker 22:21

Thank you for asking me, and I don't want you to be concerned about me. But yeah, I don't know. It's life comes at you fast, right? Yeah, is really fast parenting. And parenting in particular comes at you super fast, right? And you know, and, but I think that we can't throw those moments away. You know, there's so much growth that happens for me, too, in those moments as well as my kids.

Judy Tsuei 22:45

That's incredible. And as you were talking, I started reflecting upon, you know, I've never asked my parents, what has your experience with racism been like, like, I saw it a little bit when I was growing up of different people making comments like Ching Chong, like, whatever, and all that kind of stuff. But I imagine that their experience was much more intense, because they also didn't have the language, you know, they're trying to like, figure it out. And so I think part of this podcast is have these conversations. So hopefully, ideally, we can invoke more empathy and compassion for even the hardest relationships in our lives. And to just see it from a new lens or a new angle.

I would love Well, first of all, thank you so much for sharing all of that, because I don't know, I don't know if any parent ever feels like they've given an adequate answer. I sit there and I'm like, Oh, God, I gotta, like,

Unknown Speaker 23:32

I gotta I gotta just throw like a reality check. My kid like single digit age child asked me the other day do you masturbate? And I'm like, we're done with this conversation. I had nothing right. Like I was prepared for the sex talk. But I'm like, whoa.

Unknown Speaker 23:49

Thank you very fast.

Judy Tsuei 23:50

Oh my gosh, that's hilarious. Yeah. And you know, one of the great lessons that I've especially learned over the last like year or two is just it's the coming back together. That's the opportunity to like strengthen, so it doesn't have to be perfect in that moment. You can have grace for yourself and then you know, revisit the conversation and and also recently, people have been saying, like, nothing's set in stone, you know, things can change.

It's gonna while we're bringing whatever consciousness we have to this moment, and tomorrow or a year from now we'll think probably very differently. I would love to hear about your book. Tell us about it.

Unknown Speaker 24:26

Musashi, you can tell I'm just so freakin excited about this book. It looks pretty so

Judy Tsuei 24:30

pretty.

Unknown Speaker 24:33

And it really is what I like to call an anti racism one on one right? Like it level sets for people all the stuff that we weren't necessarily taught in school, but it is breaking down each chapter which we have designated as sort of pain points, things that we commonly hear about race and racism in general society, but like, we bring in the empathy we share stories in each chapter, we have the history and laws and reality of how we got to where we are Then again, in each chapter, we have an action point.Like it really helps answer the question. Okay, now that I know this, what do I do?

Unknown Speaker 25:09

And so we come at it from three different sections, we have the being white in America being black in America and being a non black person of color in America, as well. And so it's a we like to say it's a level setting guide that I think basically, unless you've been involved in these conversations for a long time, there is nuggets of information and action things that we can all do differently and better all the time. Because this is a constant work in progress.

Judy Tsuei 25:33

Mm hmm. That's amazing.

Unknown Speaker 25:35

Yeah, I think the book Oh, sorry.

Judy Tsuei 25:37

No, no, I was gonna just say, like, even when you described it, I was like, how did she compile? How did they both compile all of that information into a little book, like, three sections in and of themselves could be like huge tomes, like encyclopedia level. But we're gonna say recession.

Unknown Speaker 25:55

You know, I think we've seen a lot of books that are based in theory, right. And I think a lot of the discussions around race and racism are theoretical in some ways, or deal with overarching theories. And like, like I majored in, like completely theoretical major. So like, I love just the possibility of something right. But that said, like, I think that that is paralyzing for people, because you hear the possibilities. And you might have read a lot of the books that came out, which are great books, and that talk about the theory behind why we are here.

Unknown Speaker 26:29

But then the problem is you put those books down, and you think, like, Okay, I know all these things now. But I don't know how to take this concept and put it into my daily life. And so that is what we were really trying to do with this book, because they think that people ask, What do I do about something? And then, if there isn't something that's easily actionable, then it it gets, you know, sort of pushed to the side? Because especially if you're white in this country, it doesn't have to be top of mind, right? It is not, your daily survival is not sort of based on on this.

Unknown Speaker 27:04

But I think that we need everyone in this conversation, we need everyone in this work, it really is all of our collective work, right to make this better for our kids, at the very least. So I think that is our why as to why we wrote this book, and why we specifically structured it as practically as we did.

Unknown Speaker 27:23

And I'll also add, yes, it's called dear white women, Asian people are allowed to read it to really, we were really reaching out to that target audience of people who have largely been able to avoid the conversation, check out of the conversation, but it really is written in an approachable, easy to read, like pick up put down kind of format, for anybody who's interested in the conversation.

Judy Tsuei 27:43

And I think storytelling, I mean, like science is even demonstrated, though, I love that you infuse that as a storyteller, you know, as a writer, those are my personal passions. But as I've, you know, had more time to dive into a more deeply, I've learned how our brain actually rewires when we hear stories, and that when we hear other people's stories, there's a level of us standing in their shoes and like projecting what would that feel like? What would that be like, which I think is another reason why storytelling is so impactful, why it's been passed through millennia, as ways to learn the lessons to help us navigate our lives is our brain really actively rewires to better understand that so I love that you included that personal component, because I think that so often, when you have that personal experience, or that conversation or the whatever it is, when it's on a more personal level, it just sits more deeply in your heart and in your future lived experience. So I love that you did that.

I'm curious, too. You know, both of you are biracial. I have a biracial daughter, when you say that you recently started embracing wholeheartedly each identity. I don't know if I've asked this on the show yet to anybody else who's been biracial. But you know, I think what would be your like, you have many, I'm sure, but golden nugget of wisdom, that you were kind of like, share and impart for somebody else navigating that as well, because that won't be my lived experience with my daughter. So I I won't know firsthand what that's like for her.

Unknown Speaker 29:06

I mean, I think the beauty of being biracial for me, has been that I've never fit in, and therefore I am who I am like, it forced me to acknowledge my independent identity way early. And so I was always quirky Musashi can tell you about my horrific fashion sense showing the college and like, but I just did my own thing for as long as I could, until basically society smacked me down for periods of time. And I like bought into the kool aid for a while, but really, for me, because I was always you know, going to Saturday school for Japanese and living summers in Japan and doing all these things that it turns out, other white kids in my community weren't doing but yet also fitting in with a white kids. I sort of just was well liked for being my own self. And so I think that gave me voice early on. And so I leaned into that a lot.

Unknown Speaker 29:58

I think for me, it was Really, people will try and put you right in a box. And so for me, it was really important from a very early age to be able to define who I was. And so I think this is kind of along the lines of what Sarah was saying to like, I recognized that there were spaces that I would go into that were predominantly Asian, where people would look at me and be like, why are you here, but then I would bring my lunch to school. And you know, my dad would have gone to Little Tokyo, and I've gotten something that I thought was awesome. And my white classmates would be like, what the hell is that? You know, and so there were definitely times where I was like, I don't fit in anywhere.

Unknown Speaker 30:36

But at the same time, people were like, oh, you're white or and you know, this. Also, my name is made up, right? And my parents really, you know, there's kanji Japanese characters for my name, like my grandmother and the fortune teller in Japan pick these characters out.

Unknown Speaker 30:50

But my parents created this name, because they were like, Oh, this is perfect. Like, all Americans will think it's American. All Japanese will think it's Japanese, because it's got this kanji. So no, that was a giant fail on their part. All Japanese thought it's like some American name. All Americans think I'm Russian or Eastern European? Because they're like, Oh, I can kind of see it. I'm like, not at all. Not at all. But you know, and so so I just ended up with one of those names where you can't find it on any key chain at like, anywhere, right? There's no personalized things ever.

Unknown Speaker 31:21

But starting from that, right from the very first moment where people will mispronounce your name, or they'll call you what you want to you, you learn to find your voice about who you are. And so I think but now in retrospect, although I hated it, for the first 18 years of my life, they my parents gave me this gift with my name, because it forced me right to advocate for myself.

Judy Tsuei 31:43

That's amazing. Well, I could talk to you both for forever. Because I love everything that you're doing. I would love to close the interview the same way that I do with all the other guests and just ask you along the lines of this idea of fact saving face, and really empowering mental and emotional health for all of us on this planet.

What would you like to say and share and highlight to potentially reframe, or just invite people to contemplate or reflect upon or whatever it is that's on your heart? Who, that and an addendum. So like, final question, part one a, is there something that people haven't asked you that you would really like to be asked or just like, you know, share about somewhat similar, someone different,

Unknown Speaker 32:26

I will offer my vulnerability, which is that I struggle with mental health issues. I think part of the reason that, you know, after my dad died when I was 26, I went through a depression, you know, situationally, or whatever. But part of my interest in human psychology, and life coaching, and all of this stuff is because I'm selfish, I want to know, what does it take for us to all build a more resilient life? What does it take to help people thrive, because I need to put all these pillars of support in my own life, to maintain equilibrium.

Unknown Speaker 33:02

And I think for the longest time, especially being type A, I would compare myself to my friends who may be on this call, who could get like four hours of sleep, and like, do all the things because I am so fortunate to have brilliant, incredibly driven people in my life who do really cool stuff. And I always felt like I had to, like, push it, and I wasn't ever good enough, because I needed my eight hours of sleep, or that I was having an off day or that I feel things really emotionally. You know, I process things in this way. It is a gift. I know now, after all the work that I've done that it is a gift, but I guess I want to just say fuck it to all of these comparisons, right? Like I thrive when I have boundaries, when I know that I am worth it, I am enough, and that I can get to sleep. And I can get a lot of shit done in the hours that I'm awake. And so coming to that point took a long time. And I want to help people short circuit that by just being like, if you know what you need, claim it you are worth it. Because for so long, we're told it's external metrics of success that define who we are. And that's not true.

Judy Tsuei 34:07

Hmm, I love that. That's exactly what I say all the time. I mean, one of I feel like it should be my new tagline is that hurt people hurt people. So let's let's help ourselves heal. Because, you know, having been on the receiving end of that, I mean, you know, sharing vulnerably just few weeks back, I think something happened with my ex husband that then my friend, you know, said a comment, which was like, You don't deserve this shit.

And that one comment unleashed a whole waterfall of understanding of Wow, throughout my entire life. I've been experiencing things that I haven't, you know, quote unquote, deserved for just being who I was because I was on the receiving end of other people who didn't know how to manage their emotions or whatever it was. And I think for a long time I just interpreted in order to survive my young mind in order to survive just was like there must be something wrong with me if I can try harder and do better. I'll get out of this. I'll do you know, and so I think that that's what was a huge part of leading to my eating disorder and trying to connect Trouble things and manage and all of that kind of stuff. But I don't know, like intellectually, you can understand things for a very long time. And then all of a sudden your emotions or your inner child, or whatever catches up with you.

And then I feel like it was that weekend that all of it just kind of came together and was like, Oh my god, there is some grieving work that I have not done for, you know, the injustice that I've experienced, or you know how resilient I've been. And so I just spent the weekend I'm not a crier, but I just like was like crying and crying and crying, and then also listening to Mumford and Sons on repeat, like, like, how much more emo Could I get? Just like the same songs anyways, but then it helped me kind of get through the other side of like, Oh, I see. Okay, so now that I have that, and I've processed through that, now I feel like I'm navigating through life a bit more tenderly and gingerly for myself, like having that self compassion, which I don't, you know, type A like very perfectionist, like, I can do it stupid other weak people, like I can manage this, or whatever the comparison was, like, I'm going to be badass, like, you know, I'm going to make it happen. And so it was such a big, I think gift in the end.

And a lot of my healing work with my ex husband has been around well, as hard as it has been, these experiences have led me to really spotlight some areas of my life that have needed some big, big healing. And so in that respect, I can be very grateful for the challenges that were brought up. But yeah, I think that, you know, mental health has always been a component of that. And so I feel like, that's why I'm trying to help people remove the shame and the stigma, because if we really want to create a healthier planet, and community and whatnot, like you said, the ground up, that's where it starts with ourselves,

Unknown Speaker 36:43

I keep coming back to like, life comes at you really fast, right? And I've always been a planner, like a huge, huge planner, and it's hard for me to let go of control, right? And so trying to figure out and I mean, you know, like, obviously, I went into a profession where it is a lot of control, and then your clients do something like that. You're just like, what, what, what and and then suddenly, you're not in control anymore.

Unknown Speaker 37:07

And it was, and so my whole professional life was trying to balance right, this control and struggle over control. And I think that parenting really showed me that that's an impossible balance.

Unknown Speaker 37:18

And so I think that what I would say is really embrace that, that loss of control that uncertainty that messiness, and I know we've kind of lived through, you know, this time period where there's, everything's like a maybe, right, maybe this is going to happen, maybe my kids will go to school, maybe you know, there will be a vaccine for them later this year, maybe, you know, maybe we'll see our relatives next year, maybe, but everything is a maybe, and I think it's so hard when you want to plan and you want to be in control, it has been, it's been hurtful for, or harmful for me to try and figure out that mindset. So I would say, let go of a little bit of that, right? Like, there are certain things that we can control. And I, you know, my kids went to this camp, and I just told Sarah, this whole thing, like we can control attitude and effort. That's, that's literally it, right? We can control your attitude, and your effort.

Unknown Speaker 38:13

So like, now I try and say to myself, that's what I'm going to control. And who knows that? Who knew that, you know, my kids, like, sports camp would have taught me this big life lesson. But that is what I try and put out in the world. And so I think along those lines, like, you know, asking, What do you need to what do you really need to control? What do you not need to control? This sort of at that central question?

Judy Tsuei 38:38

An amazing lesson. I love that your kids worth can't

Unknown Speaker 38:42

think right? Yeah, who knew? Like seriously, best money I ever spent towards the

Judy Tsuei 38:47

end? What's your one? a? What's the question that you wish people would ask you about? That's a

Unknown Speaker 38:52

tough one. You know, I wish people would, you know, because I did such a traditionally successful career for so long, right? And, and I think there are ways to Sarah's point like way earlier about there's a divide, right between people who are sort of in this traditional path of success and people who are focused on humanity, there are ways to really marry the two.

Unknown Speaker 39:16

And there were ways that I found in which I could do it, and there are ways that I couldn't do it. And so I wish people would ask more about how that's possible, right? Like, how can we, because I think for some people, it is very hard to give up traditional success. But there are ways to still work towards that and maybe that is the bridging the divide there. Maybe that is, especially in Asian communities because I feel like we there is a lot of pressure to achieve this traditional success. But if you're also trying to be heartland and other ways, like how do we how do we bridge that in ways that makes sense for us.

Judy Tsuei 39:52

I love that because you're reminding me of a tool that I think that I've been able to use in my own life in relationships and all of that is the And conjunction instead of like, or you can say like, well, this is what I want. And, you know, this is also what I want. And it was so kind of freeing to be like, wait, you can figure out a way to navigate the whole of it. Like, that's pretty cool. And yeah, sometimes you're gonna have to sacrifice one thing for another or whatnot. But at least knowing that there is a, and opportunity is so great. Now I'm thinking about tattoos. Anywho.

Thank you so much, both of you for your time. If people want to follow up with you to listen to your podcast, and to order your book, where can they find you?

Unknown Speaker 40:38

We are always centralized at WWW dot dry women.com. But we also are all over Instagram at tear white women podcast and you can order the book, bookshop or on Amazon called dear white women, let's get uncomfortable talking about racism.

Judy Tsuei 40:55

I'm so excited because I keep thinking about my daughter, and just how can I help her navigate? I was just mentioning that I was reading a article in parents magazine or something. And it was talking about like, what do you do when your six year old thinks they're fat. And so one of the tips was, instead of pretending like different body shapes don't exist, you acknowledge that that is there. And you know, I think there's a subtle form of gaslighting that kind of happens for all of us have in the effort to be polite and respectful, like this is what we do.