Episode 144: From Survival to Significance: Mental Health, Marriage & Meaning with Angela Cheng-Cimini
In this episode of the F*ck Saving Face podcast, host Judy Tsuei engages in a heartfelt conversation with Angela Cheng-Cimini, a seasoned HR professional, about the complexities of mental health, relationships, and personal growth, particularly within the context of Asian American culture.
They explore the importance of self-advocacy, the evolution of workplace humanity, and the significance of nurturing long-term relationships. Angela shares her journey of navigating her marriage, parenting, and career while emphasizing the need for intentional living and redefining success. The discussion highlights the shared human experience and the importance of embracing vulnerability and authenticity in all aspects of life.
Sound Bites
"We are all part of this shared humanity."
"Relationships require TLC."
"We have to give ourselves permission to fail."
"It's liberating to think about what I want to do."
"I don't want to wake up dead one day."
"It's about living with more intention."
"Chase the things that really matter."
Takeaways
We often suppress our needs, especially in collectivist cultures.
Championing for oneself is a crucial step for marginalized communities.
Relationships require ongoing effort and TLC to thrive.
It's important to model healthy conflict resolution for children.
Redefining success in relationships can lead to personal growth.
Living with intention can prevent regrets later in life.
We should normalize discussions around mental health and vulnerability.
The evolution of workplace culture demands more compassion and understanding.
Intentional living involves prioritizing what truly matters in life.
Legacy is about creating meaningful contributions that reflect our values.
Episode Highlights
00:00 Empowering Voices: The Journey Begins
03:03 Navigating Relationships and Personal Growth
06:06 The Evolution of Workplace Humanity
09:08 Championing Self-Advocacy in Marginalized Communities
12:06 Redefining Relationships and Success
14:53 The Importance of TLC in Long-Term Relationships
17:47 Lessons from Parenting and Conflict Resolution
20:52 Rewiring Life: Embracing Change and Intentionality
24:02 Living with Purpose: The Legacy We Create
27:11 Final Reflections: Intentional Living and Self-Discovery
Transcript:
Judy (00:02.668)
Welcome to the F*ck Saving Face podcast, where we're empowering mental and emotional health for Asian Americans and voices of color by breaking through taboo topics. Life may not always be pretty, but it is indeed beautiful. Make your story beautiful today. Angela joined Harvard Business Publishing as Senior Vice President, Talent and Chief Human Resources Officer in 2021.
She spearheaded efforts to develop a talent roadmap that supports business strategy and creates a really diverse workforce. So I loved Angela's energy. Not only does she have these amazing accolades, she was so honest and so open about what it's taken to be in a long-term relationship with her husband, raising adult children, you know, the whole gamut and rediscovering herself.
at this next chapter as she's retiring from working at Harvard and then what's next. So I think in our culture, we don't often look to the future about aging. We don't talk about these third acts. And I think that's important because I certainly don't feel like I am my age in terms of being 46 and then this upcoming year in 2025 turning 47. And I can quickly see how
as I move into my 50s and then my 60s, I'm still gonna have this mentality that that is not, like the age doesn't seem to make sense to my brain. And so I wanna be able to prepare for a lifetime of goodness, a lifetime of joy and mobility and thriving and continually redefining and continually growing and being who I wanna be, doing what I wanna do, having what I wanna have at any age. So I'm very, very grateful for Angela.
being so open to this conversation and sharing what her journey has been like. So I invite you to tune in and listen to what insights and wisdom she has to share. I have Angela Chang-Simini with me here today. She's a chief HR officer and we connected a while back via LinkedIn and the Authentic Asian, I believe.
Judy (02:12.826)
And just through shared experiences of being an Asian woman in the workplace, in our lives, and like how we move about. And then of course, being the, you know, formerly trying to be a good Chinese daughter, trying to aim for that Harvard status. I saw that you had, you know, been at Harvard. I was like, ooh, Harvard. So I'm going to just turn it over to you to share a bit more about you and what you do. And then we'll dive into the conversation.
Angela
So I married my college sweetheart. We celebrated our 30th wedding anniversary this year, which has prompted some personal decisions that we may get into later. Mom to two adult children who are showing up this wonderful human. So super proud of that. And I am a 30 plus year career professional in human resources.
That is absolutely my calling. I fell into that rather randomly. My dad was like, this looks like an interesting program for you. And I took some courses, had my first internship and decided that yeah, human resources was how I wanted to spend my professional life. So I've had a good journey so far.
I'm so curious about this HR element because you, from what I've understood of anybody who's in HR, you're seeing all of the bits of a person. So you get to see them at their celebratory moments and then their challenging moments as well. And I think that we forget that, that we are all human beings. And so the step that we're talking about today is the cheat sheet for all of eternity and just about being human in the world and understanding like...
we are all part of this experience. And even though the actual experiences we go to, the details of which might be different, we're still part of the shared humanity. And so many of the emotions that we experience are the same. And I think that for anybody who's feeling lonely and alone in their journey, it's so helpful to remember that because I know that I read this beautiful book. It's funny, because when we talked about HR, I was thinking about what she said, because she's a hilarious blog writer from Texas.
Judy (04:13.292)
She wrote about her experiences in HR and she's like, you would not believe the things that I have gone through and experienced. Like you just would not believe. But she was, she's someone who struggles with a lot of mental and emotional like challenges and illnesses. And then she also has a lot of physical like ailments and stuff as well. And so I guess people in her circle had started committing suicide and it was just like one person after another. And she wanted to like speak up about it. And she was saying that,
if you are depressed and you move into like really the depths of depression, it's this thing that happens in your brain where you all of a sudden feel completely alone and your brain convinces you that you want to murder yourself. And she was like, it's so wild because that's not true. But when you're in those depths, that's where you go. And so I'm so curious in your HR experience, like what are some of the shared lessons that you've learned from your 30 year career?
Well, I think it's really spot on for you to say that, you know, we're all humans. And for a long time, it was completely inappropriate to reveal all of ourselves at work. think, I think to some extent, we also have overextended on the bring your whole self to work message at work, because frankly, there are some freak flags that I'd rather not see at work, right? Whatever that is, I really don't want all of you to show up.
But I do think that we have now given permission to people to be more of themselves. And so how that has shown up in HR is that we have now, those of us in this practice have now had to develop new skills, whether it's therapist, whether it's lawyer, whether it's doctor, whether it's friend, right? We've broken all sorts of boundaries that when I began in this career, we're verboten, right? You didn't want to be
the sofa counselor, because we weren't certified to do that work. But now there is so much more that's being brought into work that in some ways we have to express ourselves as much more compassion. So we can't say check that part at the door. And so we have had to develop a whole new skill set. And that also means for leaders and managers, they have also had to develop a new muscle. So even for those people who aren't in HR, we are now expecting leaders to be far more compassionate, far more sensitive, to do a lot more active listening.
Angela (06:36.844)
than they were prepared to do and some still haven't caught up to that skill. But I do think the whole is a change for the better because when people are more comfortable with who they are in all their dimensions, then I think they can bring more of their best selves to work, which ultimately benefits everyone.
Have you seen any themes that have been like, prevalent over the 30 years of like, you know, just our shared humanity? So there's
lot, I think we also overplay the hand about generational differences at work. Right? So when her parents are at work, they stayed with one company and they got the gold watch when they ended to today where, you know, the Gen Z'ers don't want to work. And I think honestly, we have always wanted and have been motivated by the same things. We want to be heard. We want to be valued. We want to do a good day's work. We want to be respected. I think we thought that we couldn't ask for those things.
when my parents were right. You were lucky that you were employed. You were lucky that you had a pension. And these days are being like, people are like, you're lucky I'm showing up. Like this is a transaction. You give me a day's pay for days for the work. And if I ever feel like that equation is out of balance, then I'm leaving. Right. But I think fundamentally we all want the same. So I think for me, that's what's shown up the most differently is people are just more vocal.
They are much better at being champions for themselves around what they deserve and what they want, and they're willing to lead for it. Whereas that wasn't the expectation, you sort of committed yourself to life and that was really the only path. So I think our employees are telling us a lot about what they want if we're willing to listen.
Judy (08:13.214)
And the championing for oneself, I think that as a notion for Asian Americans and for a lot of marginalized communities, that can be difficult. I was just talking with a friend this morning where it's even difficult to acknowledge that we have needs. Like, there is something that we want. And so I see my partner, who's a white man, being able to articulate those things so easily and readily receiving it. And I think, again, we live in a world that has been catered towards a certain demographic.
And so their lived experience is different from ours, which coming from a highly collectivist culture is what do you need? Your needs often matter more than mine. And so how can I sublimate myself to honor and recognize you? So even acknowledging that we have a need is a huge step forward because like we, I, for me have suppressed that for a long time, just even knowing what it is.
And so then after you acknowledge you have a need, the next step is to ask for it, which is a whole other like imperfect kind of process. And then even just taking up space and then allowing for the answer potentially to be no, or like that you're going to ask and that need isn't necessarily going to get met and then what happens there. And so I would love for you to share how we can better champion for ourselves.
Well, your story earlier about the woman who is experiencing suicidal thoughts, right? That is still a stigma in our culture where we are unwilling to put a name to that. We're unwilling to seek help. I will share that I myself was on antidepressants for many years. I do believe it was triggered by postpartum, but I myself come from a bit of a troubled childhood and adolescence that carried over into adulthood.
And even after I had gone off antidepressants, my mom was like, so you're never going back on this again, right? Like you don't, you don't need those, right? And I said, well, mom, if I had high blood pressure, right, you wouldn't fault me for taking the meds for that. But there's something about mental health that remains in this black box that we're unwilling to talk about. So I do think that there is a cultural battle that needs to continue to be fought.
Angela (10:25.302)
It's interesting, right, because Judy, you and I both have biracial children who are growing up in a very Westernized culture. It is interesting to compare their experiences with other children who don't grow up in a biracial household. Because I have found in proximity to me that couples that are both Asian still perpetuate a very Eastern culture and that household. And so I think we still find a little bit of that keep your heads down, meritocracy will reign, you will get recognized when it's appropriate for you to be recognized.
and not quite leaning into the Western culture of, I'm going to raise my hand because I have something important to say and damn it, I will be heard. Yes. So I'll be interested to see as they become adults, how they find their voice because I wonder if it will change given our parental influence.
love what you're sharing because I hadn't thought. I mean, I've definitely seen my daughter taking more action than I had at an earlier age. And I thought at first, well, maybe it's just because I learned from my mistakes or the mistakes that were imprinted upon me. So I'm going to train her or educate her differently and just normalize different things in our household. And one of the things that I had always thought when I was pursuing yoga and all of these Eastern healing modalities in addition to like Western was
It would be wonderful if we just could merge the two and just take the best of both worlds and use that as a holistic approach. And I think what you just said right now is that it's like, what's the best about Western culture? What's the best about Eastern culture? How can we merge the two? And it's funny because my daughter on Friday, she has this event with her jujitsu where they're like, it's just going to be a fun event. We're going to go to a different space. They're going to do the stuff.
So she's with her dad this week and I said, hey, babe, like I signed you up for that thing because you wanted to go, but I'm letting you know that none of your friends I checked in like the other moms and stuff, they're unavailable, the other girls. And she looked at me, she's like, oh, and then she goes, that's okay. It gives me a chance to make new friends. And I was just like, wow, like I was so, you know, yeah. And I think that that is the difference. That's like a small example, but it is a difference of like how to approach things in a way.
Judy (12:35.65)
that shifts what we had learned. So, and I'm curious for you too, you you mentioned at the start of celebrating your anniversary and marrying your college sweetheart. I would love to know. I think a lot of people are also curious about that. And when I was getting divorced, someone said to me, child therapist, and she's like, we need to redefine what a successful relationship is. And sometimes for some of us, that means...
calling it and just being like, okay, you know, we came together, we did what we were supposed to do, and now let's like move on. But I don't, I think, like you said, with the business world, that there has been an evolution and a shift and we've needed to catch up to that. And so I think 30 or like a long term relationship now looks different than perhaps it looked before. And I would love to know your lessons in this because that's amazing.
So the lesson, Judy, is that relationships of any kind require TLC. I will share that the 30th anniversary was particularly poignant because the year and a half before that was really tumultuous. Our marriage was severely tested. And I will give credit to my husband who said, I'm not willing to give up. This is worth fighting for. And had he...
walked away, we would not have gotten to three. Wow. And he showed me what hard work really looks like. And it was amazing. He did a lot of work on himself and he did a lot of work for us. Like for a while, he was doing the heavy lifting because I was sort of one foot in, one foot out. And then we started to rediscover all the things about why we came together in the first place.
And we are not where we were when we were happy 20 years ago. We are in a different place so that we are happy now in year 31. And it took so much work, And there was, you know, there was some, there were some casualties, things that we had to ignore, put aside because this required so much energy. And I think to your point, there are times when you're just going to have to call it DOA. But before you walk away from something that
Angela (14:53.962)
that had so much import, think it's worth really, really diving in and understanding if there's still something there to preserve. And I didn't just do it for us, I wanted to do it for our kids because I also wanted to role model for them what it looks like to really get through hard times. I wanted to show myself that maybe I was stronger than I thought. Certainly my husband showed me that I could be stronger than I thought. And I also learned that we can have our own dreams and aspirations.
part.
Hmm. And I don't think that was something that I understood. Right. I thought, I thought everything had to be a partnership that, that, that we had to be tied at the head for everything because our kids moved out, our kids moved on. And that was for a long time, right. What was really bringing us, what was co-hearing us. And while I still had a professional career and he decided to retire, that was okay. Like we could, we could diverge. There were things that we could, and be a part of. so we discovered that. And then we realized that there are more things that are still in common.
So anybody who looks at the surface and says, my God, that looks so wonderful and easy. I don't think there's any relationship that is easy, right? That's just, that's false. That's false. And I think we should normalize talking about how sometimes it's just really difficult and sometimes we'll stay together and sometimes you don't. And there's no judgment either.
What I love that you just mentioned is that you wanted to create an example for your kids to be able to see the hard work. And were you open with them about the challenges? I mean, not necessarily the details in your relationship, but were you open with them that there was a challenge happening?
Angela (16:29.334)
Yes. I mean, and sometimes it appeared when I would have preferred that it didn't, right? Like things would just erupt in the moment and they would happen to be a witness to that. I was more forthcoming with my children than I think my husband was. He's, he tends to be much more private in any case, but I also thought that it was helpful for my kids to see the waxing and waning. So I never saw my parents argue and my husband was like, of course they do. I'm like, no, they don't. And so this was when we were first starting to date. He's like, of course they do. So I went back.
Yeah.
Angela (16:59.138)
And I asked my parents and they're like, yeah, of course we do. And I'm like, well, you've never, like they didn't think it was appropriate. And actually it was a disservice to me because I never learned how to argue like productive. So when my husband, when we were still dating, we would get into fights and I would just completely shut down because I wasn't equipped to work through the problems. would stew and I would stomp and I would segregate myself. he's like, no, honey, you have to come back into the room. Like we have to talk about. And so he taught me how, how to sort things out.
And so I think in that same vein, think it was, I tried not to overshare because I think there's a point where that becomes counterproductive, but I think it was real for our kids to see that, yeah, mom and dad aren't always perfect, especially as my son is a newlywed. He was married a year and a half. And I think it's important for them to see that, not everything is unicorns and rainbows.
I think that that's huge because counter to yours where your parents didn't fight in front of you, that's all my parents did. And so then I had the same takeaway in terms of I'm not going to fight because I don't want that messy situation. And you didn't want to fight because you didn't see it modeled that you could. so that's right. Yeah. And so I think both angles caused us to have the same kind of response of shut down. We're not going to do this.
dysfunction.
Later, this is no good. And it's funny, was just, a bunch of my friends had told me about the show that's been on, which is Nobody Wants This, and it's on Netflix. Yes! But she has this moment, and I was like, wow, they captured that so well where she's in this new relationship, everything's been like peachy, roses and unicorns, and then he just says this word that she's like, ugh, and then just the way he's showing up and the clothes that he's wearing, and all of a sudden she's like, ick, we're done.
Judy (18:44.844)
Like that was her MO. And then the sister saw her and was like, you got the ick factor. Like that like showed up. And I just thought that was so fascinating. Cause I was like, other people do that too. Cause I've definitely done that of like, and we're writing this off. Cause this is no longer what I want. And just that one slight inadvertent, not intentional moment and the way that they came back together. And I think that the reparation, yeah, go ahead.
No, it's because and that character was in some ways waiting for that moment. She was waiting for the other shoe to drop. So in some ways she almost kind of manifested, right? That this person is not perfect. And then that put pressure on her later to also realize that she's not perfect. And maybe she didn't want to shatter that illusion. Right? So I think the sooner we all realize that we are human, it's not just the other people are human, but that we ourselves are also human and give us permission to fail, I think is equally important. That's also very.
Yeah, and the reparation, think that that's the one thing that I've always talked with my daughter about because I was lucky to have neighbors who had kids in their 20s when my daughter was like five or six. And so it was almost like I was watching the future of parenting. And so they told me a lot of like, you know, here's what we would have done differently. Here's what we did that we think was like really great. And so they were saying that like, it's always going to be in the reparation.
where you're gonna be able to strengthen the relationship and the coming back together, because you're not gonna get it right in the moment all the time. They definitely watch me at multiple times where they're like, you you can like relax, it's fine, it's like a kid thing. And also, because I probably had that imprint of saving face and like, you know, like, here's my daughter having a feeling and I'm like, my God, we're at somebody's house and like, you know. But I think that that like what they've.
your children have been able to witness is that reparation. And my daughter has even called it out where like, we will have like a frustrating moment with one another. And she's like, Mom, you know, what's gonna happen is that like, you know, in a little bit, we're gonna come back together and we're gonna like talk about it and it's gonna be fine. I appreciate that.
Angela (20:49.742)
So well adjusted.
She's like, you also know what you're going to do is you're probably going to say sorry to me about something. I'll say sorry. So, you know, in regards to especially because you have made some shifts and, you know, your professional career, I love that you are saying that your husband retired and you're still working. And I think that there was a woman who actually she runs Tedx here in San Diego and she's and we had brunch one day and she said, I think you need to redefine.
what retirement is going to look like for you. Because I think that you think it's this old outdated idea of that's it. I worked however many years we're done. And she's like, I don't think you're built like that. I think you're built to continually want to be productive, to continually want to contribute. And that's great. And allow that to be your plan. And I just hadn't even thought about that.
I was like, even just from a financial standpoint, because she used to work at a wealth fund and she's like, you also need to reevaluate, like you contributing to a 401k, like that, you also need to like shift your mindset around whatever you think you're gonna use those resources for in the end and all of that. And so that was so helpful to me, because it kind of took this load off of, well, I've lived my life so differently. I'm also self-employed, I have my own company. And so what am I trying to do to match like,
these financial models that were built for someone who's in a corporate career or, you know, like anything like that. And sometimes we just need people to like say something to us to just like tweak it a little bit or just be like, wait, I didn't even realize that was a possibility. And so I would love to hear for you, you know, what you envision moving forward and like, what are all the things that you're looking forward to, to create and cultivate?
Angela (22:34.68)
So not my term, but I heard it from someone else. I'm not retiring, I'm rewiring. Which I really love, but what I will say is, so what got me here was in the last year, three people that I know, two in their 50s and one in their 70s, were suddenly diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. And in a matter of three months, they were gone. And the 70-year-old got quite sick suddenly. They didn't even have time to get to their bucket list. And I mean, was just so fast.
And they
Angela (23:04.014)
And it was really a moment for me to think about what I'm doing with my life. We say that all the time, they stop and smell roses and be present, but I found that for myself, I was really sort of on auto time for the last year and a half, two years, right? Like I would get up and I go to work Monday through Friday. And if I had a chance, maybe I'd relax on Saturday. If I wasn't catching up on all the personal shit I did get to Monday through Friday. And then on Sunday night, I'm preparing for Monday through Friday again, right? And Christmas seems to come faster every year, right? And so just time is just...
Flying by and I'm 54, so I have fewer years ahead than I do behind. Even if I lived to the ripe old age of 99, those last 10 years probably don't look like they do for the next 10 years right now. So I have found it to be super, super clarifying for me around what it is I want to do with my life. Now, to your point about practical considerations, I am six years ahead of my retirement. For sure, my financial advisor is like, okay, we got to make, so there are going to be some choices that I make.
If I shed myself with all the other bullshit, it'll be fine. I probably don't need another three pairs of gorgeous black shoes that just came out this season. My husband thinks I have way more black. Those are kittens. These are stilettos. Those are boots. Not the same thing as the ballet flat. So I can make some choices around what's important. But fundamentally, I have enough to do the things I want to do. It's no longer about what I need to do. And I certainly have the luxury and privilege, I feel like,
I've hit a pinnacle, so I can check that box and now think about what I want to do, which is I want to go into hibernation. I would love to sleep for a long time. I've always wanted to learn how to paddleboard. Maybe there's a book I want to write. I would love to do a TED Talk. I want to spend more time with my kids. I want to travel more and very little that has to do with my job, which has taken up so much of my time for the last 30 years. It has also caused me to reflect on the relationships that are really meaningful.
the ones that require TLC starting with my marriage, starting with my kids, starting with my parents who are in their mid and their early eighties. And so I'm making time to spend more time with them. And it's just been very liberating to be like, yeah, that is no longer important. And that doesn't get any of my time. It's just not important enough. And so I hope that everyone has a moment as clarified.
Angela (25:22.938)
And when I was all about my career, that was appropriate and that was good because it was giving me joy. was giving me energy. made me a better parent. But now that has gone into the negative, right? It's draining more energy. It's giving me less joy. And so this pivot is appropriate for me now. And so I'm really, really looking forward to it, even though it's full of doubt, it's full of risk. It feels really right. So to that extent, I'm looking forward
I love hearing that, that you are, you know, understanding as well. My therapist had said the same thing of she's like, yeah, you're at this crux point where we're realizing that the doors ahead, like there's doors behind you that have closed and they're not gonna open again. And there's fewer doors ahead that you're going to be able to walk through. And I don't think that we as a culture or society prepare ourselves for that really. And I do think that in...
Asian societies, we do see the elders because they're usually so much more of a prominent part of our lives. And I loved that growing up. I loved having my grandmother living with us. I don't know what that did for my parents' marriage, any of that kind of stuff, but I loved it. And so I think that that is huge to be able to have people in our lives who are shifting the perspective of what's to come. And like you said,
If we're blessed to live, you know, double where we are now or whatnot, those last few years are not gonna be the same. Even now, I get up in the morning, I was like, I see why older people stretch more now. I was like, and then after a meal, I'm like, and my partner was like, I see why my parents like to go for a walk after eating now. So different little subtle things that are just, you know, eye openers and
I do think that you took the experience of having the people in your life who did not have that opportunity to be a wake up call. And I think that, you know, ideally we can do that reality check for ourselves. So we don't need the external indicators, but when we're on autopilot, it's so hard. It's super hard to like be like, wait, like just Tio, let me just take a moment and see what's important. And I do think.
Judy (27:38.306)
You know, this last weekend, I met a gentleman who we were in a room and there were all these, it was a Ted talk callback. And so all these people were getting ready to go up and share what their topics were that they were going to audition. And this one gentleman hit the name of his talk is that it's confessions of an accidental killer and like how to deal with like, you know, grief and shame and all these things. And so after he did his speech, we had a chance to sit down next to each other and chat. And he said that he had accidentally killed his girlfriend a long time ago.
And so, yeah, and so he's like, you know, nobody talks about that because obviously it's so shameful. And he's like, but 30,000 people in the U S every year accidentally kill or maim someone else. And that there's just like all of this stigma attached to it. And then I heard him talk to this other woman whose talk was about genocide and why corporate America needs to like reconcile for genocide crimes that were committed before, because it, you know, creates kind of like a holistic balance.
But she and he were talking and I was just kind of listening to their conversation about how when someone passes, when their lives are cut short, that at first what his approach was, was let me try to make sure that I'm a good person. Let me try to make sure that I'm giving back and I'm creating like, you know, all of these things and whatnot. And he was like, but that was never sufficient. And then it wasn't until he thought about the person who had passed and what they would have done with their lives.
And she was a theater major and she was gonna go to school in New York for that. And so he's like, well, she would have wanted to pursue something in theater. So then he created a scholarship in her name for theater students to be able to go to theater school. And he's like, that felt right and good because that was a legacy that she would have created. And then he doesn't talk to her parents anymore, but that the parents contribute to that charity.
And so, you know, there's some sort of element of that. And so thinking about all these people whose lives didn't have an opportunity to unfold and the gift that we're given, what can we do to really like live up to that fullest capacity? It was such a fascinating kind of like, again, reality check of, yeah, you'd never know what's gonna happen.
Judy (29:56.312)
How can we make sure that we are making the most because there's a lot of people who don't get that opportunity and they don't get that chance and like.
So what I've been, what I've been telling people who are willing to listen is I don't want to wake up dead one day. You know, like it's just, it's over. Like that's, that's it. And you you don't get a do over and every day you get, you know, 24 hours to make some good choices, which is not to say that every day will be perfect, but I do think we should try and live with more intention.
Yeah, I think that intentionality, I think about it a lot, like what you said of, don't want to wake up dead one day. My fear is that I'm going to, you know, wake up dead one day and be like, damn it, I should have enjoyed it more while it was happening. Yes. Instead of, you know.
like, yes, be present in the moment, right? I remember someone was like, even when you're washing the dishes, just be present in that moment, like use it as a moment for meditation, right? As you're as you're wiping on and wiping off, right? Or just listening to the water flow or, you know, stacking the dishes, whatever, whatever it is, just even in that moment, find small gratitudes that you have a house that you're warm.
that you're sheltered, that you just had a good meal, maybe you shared it with someone. Like, well, that's perfectly lit.
Judy (31:18.626)
Yeah, like it's for me, it's that letting in of love, like the amount of, you know, celebratory when other people tell me like, I know you don't let it in. And that's because again, the culture and the family that I grew up in was like, we're not going to praise like none of that. We're not going to. And so I don't want to get to a point of like, my God, look at how much love was around me that I just didn't let soak into me because of whatever reasons that I had. And so I love that you're sharing that.
So every time I end an interview, ask this question, if you could say fuck saving face about something, what would you say fuck saving face about?
I should have been better prepared for this question, Judy. I guess, you know, it's the name that you carry. So I do think that if we think more intentionally about how we live our life, then you find that you're not doing it for others, that you're motivated for the right reasons, which is not to say that we should be selfish, right? Because I want to be a good mom. I want to be a good wife. I want to be a good friend.
I want to be a good colleague, right? So all of those things should naturally orient me to do things that are selfless and that are generous. But I would say chase the things that really matter, right? It's not about prestige. It's not about going to the right school. It's not about getting the right title because that for so long in our culture was about, you go to the right school? Did you get the right title? How much money are you making? Right? What kind of car are you driving?
So fuck all that, right? And focus on the things that really matter. I know that's so glib, but it is, it's, that's really the big question of life, right? Like what do want on your headstone? And it's, she was happy and she made others happy. I would love that.
Judy (33:08.206)
love that. Thank you. And if people want to follow up with you, where can they find you?
So I'm the only Angela Chang Seminary on LinkedIn. And just because I won't have a corporate day job, mean that I'm not gonna use that as a place to continue to share my reflections. And if folks share that this is where they heard me, that I spent some amazing time with Judy, then I will happily.
I love it. Thank you so much.
No, thank you. This has been, you were a masterful hostess, so thank you.
Thank you so much for tuning in. once met with a wealth fund manager friend of mine who I wanted to kind of talk about financial stuff and she
Judy (33:48.97)
is actually the director of TEDx here in San Diego, extremely accomplished, very dedicated to her Jewish faith. And basically she was like, wait a minute, you need to revamp what you think retirement is. You need to understand that for you, it's probably gonna look like you wanna be productive for all of your life. You want to continue to elevate and amplify and grow. so there is not gonna be the sitting around doing nothing kind of thing. That's not your jam. And it was really helpful to hear someone who's worked with
unbelievably wealthy, let's say, clients and seeing their paths in life and the things that they've cultivated as they're creating intergenerational wealth to alleviate that expectation for myself. Working not for the sake or because I have to work, but working because I love to work and I love to live out my purpose and create the kind of impact that I want to create.
If you are also looking to find that greater purpose and to reframe some of the things that have been holding you back in life and you want to connect and work with me one-on-one, I would be honored to jump on a conversation and see if it's the right fit. You can go to my website, judytsway.com, learn a little bit more. You'll also see all the previous issues of The Heartbeat, the weekly newsletter that I send there, and just get a sense of my philosophy, how it is that other people have experienced working with me. And you can also email me.
hello at judytsway.com. until our next episode and when we engage and interact, just sending you so, so much love.
Judy (35:20.974)
Thank you so much for listening to today's episode. If you'd like to support me and this show, please go to iTunes and leave your review. It means so much to me and it'll help others find this podcast. I'll catch you in the next episode. And if you'd like to stay in touch between now and then, please visit wildheartedwords.com and sign up for my weekly newsletter. I've had people share with me that it's the best thing to arrive in their inbox all week.
LIKE WHAT YOU HEARD?
Help us get more content like this out into the world!
Support our podcast or make a donation here.
Keywords: mental health, Asian Americans, emotional well-being, self-advocacy, relationships, workplace culture, personal growth, aging, intentional living, legacy
