EPISODE 77: DIVERSITY, EQUITY, AND INCLUSION WITH JAYA MALLIK

Sep 24

MEET: JAYA MALLIK

Jaya lives in Maple Valley, WA, a small town outside of Seattle, and is a first-generation East-Indian American from the Washington, DC area. She is currently the DEI Lead for Tandem Diabetes Care, a MedTech company focused on designing insulin technology to help people with diabetes manage their diabetes seamlessly. Prior to joining Tandem, she was a Program Manager and DEI lead at Meta (aka Facebook). Prior to Meta, she served as a Sr. DEI Program Manager at Amazon, where she led a company-wide goal to remove non-inclusive language from technical systems and documentation. Before she became a DEI Practitioner, she spent her career in Learning and Development and has a passion for helping people incorporate more equitable and inclusive practices through education. Jaya loves spending time with her husband and two young daughters, hiking, spending time with friends, laughing at memes, and watching 90’s movies together.

LinkedIn:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jayamallik/

TikTok:

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZTdfMnLMH/

Instagram:

https://www.instagram.com/besharamgirlz/

Takeaways

Diversity, equity, and inclusion.

Despite these three topics being the heart and center of F*ck Saving Face, these are still conversations I’m getting familiar with as an Asian American breaking free from my sheltered past.

This episode is a great example of why I feature guests on my show so they can teach both you and me about the various perspectives around these important conversations. And that’s exactly what Jaya Mallik is offering today.

Her professional and personal experiences as a first-generation American, a child of Indian immigrants, a K-12 teacher at Title I Schools, technology training and professional development educator for corporations, the founder of Inclusive Tech at Amazon, and overall passionate human being is why Jaya is the perfect person to discuss what these terms mean and how they apply to today’s world.

Transcript

Judy Tsuei 0:07

Welcome to the fuck saving face podcast where we're empowering mental and emotional health for Asian Americans and beyond by breaking through taboo topics. Life may not always be pretty, but it is indeed beautiful. Let's make your story beautiful today.

Alrighty, we are in season three of the flex saving face podcast. And I'm so excited because I have a wonderful guest here today. Jaya Malik. And, you know, you heard the introduction at the start of this podcast. So we'll just dive deep immediately. But I just love Jaya, because we actually met at our current, you know, full time roles. That's how we met immediately bonded. And, you know, I was like, Okay, how can I plan a visit to take my daughter to go visit you, and you and your kids. And then from there, you know, it's been a wonderful journey, because both personally and professionally, we have been diving into a lot of conversations about diversity, equity and inclusion. And I think because of joyous experience at very prominent companies, she has kind of the ins and outs of both the lived experience and the professional expertise around this. And I think that this dialogue is perpetually changing. It's something that I feel for a lot of, you know, children of immigrants, it wasn't even a thing that was discussed when we were growing up. So it's not even vernacular of vocabulary that I'm super familiar with, even though it's been a very deep lived experience. And the other thing that I'm going to say is that, in my personal lived experience in my relationship recently, because I'm in a biracial relationship, there were a lot of like heated topics that came up that we don't normally that he and I have not had the vocabulary around. So it's a learning all around. And I would love to turn it over to Jaya just to share a bit about your story. And who you are. And you know how you got to this moment here.

Jaya Mallik 2:09

Awesome. Thank you for having me duty. I'm so excited to be here. So let's see, where do we start? Gosh, okay. Well, I guess I'll start at the beginning. So first. Okay, let's see. So I am a first generation American, much like you. I was born on St. Thomas, which is in the US Virgin Islands. And I was born to parents who immigrated from India, in the 70s. And they moved to the Virgin Islands to have my father was finishing up dental school and my mom was a young bride got married at 19, my dad during arranged marriage. And they work to establish their lives starting from scratch, as a young couple, and had my sister and I there in the Virgin Islands. And then eventually, my entire family both from my mother and father's side, my father's side had already immigrated to the US, but my mom's side eventually immigrated as well with the birth of my sister and I. And then eventually, we all moved up to the DC area. So I actually spent the majority of my life in the Washington DC area, and I grew up kind of in anybody who is from DC knows, just kind of like this triangle of DC, Maryland, Virginia. So I bounced between the three and kind of spent a majority of my life there, went to college and grad school there. Actually went into K 12 education for five years. And I was really shaped by that experience. You know, I had the privilege of, you know, having parents who both, you know, we're able to establish pretty successful careers. And as a result, you know, that did provide me with the opportunity to live in an area, primarily in in Maryland, that afforded me the chance to go to a school district that was really well resourced. And so I grew up in an area where I was literally the only South Asian student in my in my class for a majority of my, my schooling. And I think that impacted me in one way because, you know, I spent the majority of my life kind of feeling like very different from a lot of other children feeling kind of othered and then, you know, as I was continuing to grow up, I also run recognize the access to resources and teachers and, you know, basic things like supply is a network that a lot of kids that even from similar backgrounds as my own, did not have. And so then, you know, through having an amazing network of teachers and really great adults in my life, I then sorry,

Judy Tsuei 5:27

no, it's okay, we're all working from home these days, totally get it, don't even worry about it.

Jaya Mallik 5:33

You know, they're having some really amazing adults in my life. You know, I really was able to work towards eventually attending a four four year university than being able to go to grad school, and then ended up you know, in those experiences, deciding to actually go into K 12, education, teaching middle school and high school social studies, and Title One schools. And for those people who are not familiar with Title One schools, Title One schools are schools that are schools that meet a very specific definition, provided by the Department of Education for schools where maybe at the time, I don't know if this definition is still accurate anymore, at the time, it's 85% of children qualify for free and reduced meals. And unfortunately, by virtue of the structures in our society today, that's often children who tend to be either low income, or historically underrepresented or marginalized communities. Often those tend to be children of color, or intersections of low incomes or children of color. And that really impacted me because as I was growing up, you know, I had the ability to live and in pet attend, schools are in predominantly white, you know, white district, but my parents worked at Howard University, and, or they worked at Washington Hospital Center, they were both in like the health care sector. And these were communities that were either, you know, predominantly organizations that were employees of color, or serve very diverse patient bases. And, for me, it was sort of, like cognitive dissonance of, you know, recognizing, you know, I was attending school and in a community that was really well privileged and well resourced, but then going and seeing my parents work in these spaces that were just not, and the realities were so different from each other was might as well have been on different planets. And so I, you know, as a teacher really wanted to be able to support the communities that my parents had supported, and been in because I often felt more at home in those communities than I ever did in the communities that I went to school. And a lot of times, it was like, the values just aligned better, or I just felt like I could be myself more. And so I really enjoyed my time for those five years. And during that time, I also saw as a teacher, the amount of red tape that it takes to make changes in those classrooms. I saw the impact and No Child Left Behind and how prohibitively difficult it makes. Being a teacher, and also how, you know, we tie testing to funding for children, and how grossly unfair that is, especially when communities that are disenfranchised, are disenfranchised because of systemic bias and discrimination. That's generational. It's not just like one generation of that it's generation upon generation for hundreds of years. And we have done nothing to address that. And so eventually, you know, I think I just after about five years of that, of just being under resource under fast, and just trying my hardest to make the changes I wanted to, I realized that I couldn't affect change in the way that I wanted to there. But I still love teaching, and I still love helping people learn and grow. And so then I decided to pivot. I still wanted to teach people I love teaching adults as much as I love teaching kids and I was something I discovered as a K 12 teacher. And so I chose to move into the corporate setting. And during that time, I as a K 12 Teacher, I also found I really love technology, and I became a tech liaison for the schools that I was in as I was teaching. And I would help adults learn about technology and how they can incorporate into their classrooms. So

Jaya Mallik 9:44

I decided to make those two things I love match. And I started teaching about technology in learning and development in corporate spaces. And so I really dove into that part of my career for a long time. I think about like eight years, nine years, something like that. And so that part of my career just took off, I started off at a small startup at the time now it's a big company called Red fin. Then I moved into Liberty Mutual. And then I finally moved into Amazon. And working on technical training, learning professional development. At Amazon. I was part of a team that owned a large global program called Learn AWS. And it focused on supporting the technical population internally. And then I was also at Amazon in 2020. When we all I think we're faced with sort of this reckoning we had around racial injustice in the country as a whole with the murders of Briana Taylor, Ahmed arbory. And George Floyd. I think that it was sort of that confluence of that racial injustice, I think many communities of color have known about and seen for, as long as I've been alive. And kind of colliding with the pandemic, that sort of brought about this thing, surge of energy, where, you know, I know, at least for me, I was sort of fed up by that point. And I think also just the other dynamics that were playing in the culture at the time with, you know, the, the administration at the time that was in office, and the current policies that were there as well, as a result of that, particularly the border policies, I think all of those days kind of led to dislike, overwhelm a frustration for a lot of I think communities and, and so, you know, in my career, prior to 2020, just like I think countless people of color, especially women of color, you know, I been victim of microaggressions being blocked from promotions, having to code switch, never really feeling like I could totally be myself at work. I think 2020 is just that up, like, I was just tired of it. And it was just, I didn't feel like while I truly love learning and helping others grow. I didn't feel like I was doing anything, that I would be able to, like turn around 30 years from now and be proud that I was leaving something better for my own kids. And I had two girls. So I just felt that for them. And for the students that used to teach that I had to do something different. And so I just started getting really vocal with the team that I was on at the time in Amazon about how I really felt what my experience was really like as a woman of color in tax, and help trying to help my team, which was majority, white, at the time, understand what it was like to be me, or to be someone like me, really helping them to understand that, from that time develop that empathy. And it was, I think it's eye opening for a lot of them. And during that time, I ended up being asked to lead a company wide goal to remove non inclusive language from technical systems and documentation at Amazon. And it was part of a series that goal of goals and Amazon ran within the D AI space. And I also in that time started a program called inclusive tech at Amazon. And in that, you know, we in that goal, we worked hard to focus on six words that are very prevalent in technical systems and documentation. Terms like master and slave that honestly should have never been there in the first place. That we are really trying to eliminate the use of jobs that are so firmly entrenched within technical culture and are just microaggressions that are just built in to systems. And also at the same time providing education that was technically focused within the BI space to just help technologists do better. And to think about the words that they use before they use them. I'm really proud to say that we did accomplish the goal that we set out to achieve and I was really proud of that work. It was really hard.
Jaya Mallik 14:35

But it was worth it. And that program is still up and running. And it's still doing very well under the leadership of another woman of color. And so I'm really happy to see that work flourish. I then moved to meta, which was formerly known as Facebook. And I also oversaw dei within an organization called Mission Control. And that was to really oversee their onboarding program to ensure that there was equitable and inclusive as possible. And to be honest, Mehta was not a great fit for me, culturally. And that was not the best experience that I've had. In fact, I learned a lot from that experience in terms of what I don't want to do, as a DI practitioner. And so then finally, I had the opportunity and was shared the opportunity with to join panda. And I really loved Panda, which is Berg and I met where we are now. And I think it's because I think the thing I love is that I'd love technology, I still love technology. And I still love understanding how tech works, and how we can help people learn about it better. But what I love about Adam is how it uses Tech for Good. And it's truly a good mission, that it's about helping people be well, it's about removing the stressor from their life. There's no like ulterior motive event, you know, and, like, that's something I can get behind. Like, it's something I'd want to work on. And so I feel really lucky to be here.

Judy Tsuei 16:14

That's awesome. And for people who don't know, TNM works in the diabetes space. And it's wonderful, because for me as well, I've always been passionate about health and wellness. And so to be able to kind of shift the career, what I heard in your storytelling as well was that you started aligning your core values with your professional expertise, and then really moving forward in that. And I wanted to say, you know, in the conversations that we've had, you've been very forthcoming, very authentic, very open and honest, even sharing different, you know, bits of conversation, and even saying, like, I don't feel safe in this space, or I do feel like good in this space. And I think that those are not even questions or opportunities that a lot of us are afforded to be able to ask, you know, especially depending on what socio economic class you're at, you're going to take whatever opportunities are given to you. So, I think also, you and I had a conversation where, you know, there is that common cultural perception of like, okay, well, if a woman does this, versus if a man does this, it's perceived very differently, and then a woman of color doing this versus a man. And you would say, to me, why I'm just dishing out what I'm being given. And then like, showing up differently, but it's perceived so differently, even in the person who is like, also a fellow, you know, person of color, like, it's just so interesting, because for me, and this has been a learning for me is to speak up more and not be like, as authentic as I am and all the creative work that I do. When it comes to confrontation, or actually standing up and being able to speak up, it's been a learning and growth. And just because also because I was around a lot of volatile anger growing up, and so my fear is always that people are gonna lose it on me, and then I'm not going to feel safe. So with your experience in the way that you're showing up, how did you get to this place where you can speak up the way that you do? And, you know, to Yeah, to just hold that for yourself? And what kind of learnings can you share with other people so that they can start doing that too?

Jaya Mallik 18:05

That's a great question. Part of the reason why I can show up this way is that I have made my mental health a priority. And part of that has been because, you know, when I was 19, I was diagnosed with I was diagnosed with OCD. And I don't have like a form of OCD, where you like, go check all the doorknobs or the law, like the things that you might stereotype a person with OCD having, but I have like a purely mental form of OCD. So it's an invisible illness that you would not know that I have unless I publicly disclose it. And I actually don't have a problem publicly disclosing it. But, you know, during and I really struggled with my mental health for a long time. And then I was just so lucky to find when I was still living in DC, this really wonderful place called the behind the greater behavioral Behavioral Therapy Center of Greater Washington, and they specialize in OCD treatment. And that really started my journey. And I think I was like 25 at the time, but I started going. And Dr. Charles Mansueto, started that center and he is one of the leading researchers of OCD. OCD is like two to 3% of the population in the United States. And about half of that is people who have a mental only form. And I was able to work with the specialists and really start working on just accepting that I had this disorder and took me a really, really long time to accept it. But on top of that much to your point, I also had a lot of trauma growing up when I was when I was younger. You know, I talked about my childhood and, you know, a lot of times I don't dive deep into it, because part of it is like, just does not really dictate who I am now. But, you know, I had a, when I was like I think about 11, my father for drinking very heavily, he became physically abusive. And my parents separated and then eventually divorced, my father took my sister to India, and my sister and I were then separated. And so, you know, having my nuclear family kind of torn apart that way, at that age was really hard, because it wasn't by choice. And a lot of traumatic events happened in between. And so you know, having to like really process a lot of the things that happened during that time was kind of like the precursors that I needed to do to then be able to deal with my OCD. So it's like, almost like one had to come before the other. So I sort of had like layers, almost like sediment. It's kind of how I think of it. And then, but you know, once I got through processing the trauma, and then I got to the actual treatment. I, at that point, I moved to Seattle, where I live now, and transferred to another specialty treatment center, and have had a phenomenal nominal therapist, for the past six years, her name is Jackie. And I'm definitely going to share this episode with her later. So Jackie is amazing. So and she has been so incredibly critical to my growth. And so I think, you know, and but I think that within many communities of color, at least speaking to the South Asian community, mental health treatment and care is considered such a taboo topic. And for me, so critical to go get that care, not just from a disorder perspective, but also from a trauma perspective. And so being able to have both of those things cared for was like the ultimate form of self care for me. And it also really helped me to become a better stronger version of myself, and helps me to own the space that I am in more, and to feel more sure of myself, and to not doubt and question myself as much. And so I never undercut the value of seeing a counselor, a therapist, I recommend it to as many people as I can, when they're struggling, I believe it's just as important as getting a physical, like, why do we take such good care of our physical health and go get the blood work and do all of those things, and we don't, we don't attend to our mind the same way. There's such a clear like, to me mind body connection.

Jaya Mallik 22:58

And your mind is an organ to I mean, and even like things like OCD clearly have a biological basis, you know, and it's like, we have to attend to things the same way or your body's off balance. And in the case of things like our behavior shows up, I think, and things like lack of competence and self doubt, and minimize minimising ourselves making ourselves smaller. I mean, I, I guess I feel like, if you can't show up and be yourself, in any space, you know, not just work like any any place, like in a friendship and community, then they're not ready for you. And that's okay. Like, there's no judgment assigned to that. It's just that's not the place in time for you yet.

Judy Tsuei 23:48

I love that I love flipping the script and saying that they're not ready for you. And yet and adding like the word yet, I think that that's remarkable. I also think that it's really important to find people who you can safely practice with, you know, like, even with my partner where we had this, like, potentially just a more like charged conversation that I was really proud of myself for showing up and allowing myself to feel all those feelings in the moment because normally I've been, like, taught to make it pretty for somebody else for them to handle. And I wasn't doing that. And then afterwards, I reflected this with his best friend who then asked me, Well, how did it feel? And I was like, it felt really good. And he's like, Yeah, see, like, the world didn't collapse. And it was like, okay for you to speak up for yourself. And it's just, I think, for anybody who's gone through trauma, it can be very difficult to move through that obstacle or barrier to then continue to try or to continue to, you know, pursue all the things that you want to pursue and do. I had a question for you too, because when you were talking about diversity, equity and inclusion, I am not for me, it always seems to default to your racial, you know, like, how you identified that way, but not like learning differences or, you know, gay friends thing. So I'd love for you to talk about that like as a whole broader kind of perspective. Can you really understand what it is?

Jaya Mallik 25:01

Yeah, sure. I love talking about that. Because I think that, I think that we tend to when we talk about diversity, equity inclusion, we tend to, like try to distill or simplify it down to things like race and gender. And that those two things are part of the puzzle, but not the whole thing. I look at the I score, I look at diversity as like, sort of like a, like, multifaceted prism. So it's like, there are multiple, there are multiple prisms to all of us, right? We're all multi dimensional. Like you, Judy, and Isiah are not like one facet, right? Like, I am not just my race, I am not just my gender, I am so much more than that. I am a mother, I am a wife, I am somebody who studies I am a baker, like there's so many things that make me me, and so many things that make you you. And so that applies to every single person on this planet. And so when we think about diversity, we have to approach it with that same intersectionality like that same lens. And so a lot of practitioners in the space, we've looked at it through multiple lenses. So there's like almost like these concentric circles, if you want to imagine where there are things that are just like intricate to like who we are, such as like your age, your race, your gender, your physical location, disability, things like that. But then you have other things that are like almost like in the second concentric circle, like it may be like, your political affiliation, your sexual orientation, neurodiversity, like there's other parts or components that make you you. And so to try and distill people down, and I think about this, specifically, when we tried to like think about how we view diversity, like when we tried to distill it down to like, simply things like race or gender or age, which I hear often, like that's doing people a disservice. And it's doing the person who is engaging in that a disservice as well. Because that's really not diversity, that's tokenizing. And so, it's really about looking at that person, as a whole person 360, like their set of experiences, their skills, what they bring to the table in terms of ideas and knowledge and subject matter expertise. And it can be like other things like their political affiliation, their family status, their location, languages, spoken religion, like, there's so many other things that make people beautiful, and what they are. And I believe that, you know, really the equity and inclusion piece, they really tie, I think, beautifully and naturally into that. Because equity is really about, I think people tend to kind of confuse equity and equality a lot. And I've heard that conversation happen quite a bit, where they think that equality is about, really, for example, like everybody in a race having the exact same place where they have the starting line, an equity is really the starting line is staggered, based upon your set of circumstances based upon what will create a fair starting line for you.

Jaya Mallik 28:29

In order for you to be to be successful, that you can have similar outcomes to your partner to your counterparts based upon those circumstances. And I've heard those two things be conflated a lot. And we are really engaged in equity work, because just like no two people are the same. No two people circumstances are the same. And so we can't distill down and make the assumption that if we give to people, identical circumstances, they can be successful, which ties into what you were talking about, which is, for example, learning styles. Like if I give a person like a giant block of text to read, a person who's an English language learner and just acquiring the English language, and say, this block of text is written in college level English, is not going to comprehend it as fast as somebody who isn't a person that's spoken and read English their entire life. So that that is not a fair outcome. And so, instead, to create equity, you scaffold the text or you modify the text to ensure that the person who's learning English still is able to still understand the main ideas, but in language that is accessible to them, or you give them visuals or you you follow English language learning principles, you know, and so it's like back equity. And then inclusion is really about including different voices, perspectives and ideas the table so The table. metaphorical table is really just that place where decisions are made. So it's like the centers or seats of power. Do they all look homogenous? Or is it people who represent different backgrounds, different opinions, different experiences, different skills from mindsets? And that can apply to organizational or non organizational settings imply to community settings, school setting, family settings? And so are you really incorporating the ideas or thoughts of different people, like even in my own family, we practice this idea of inclusion, where it's like, my seven year old gets a chance to have her voices heard and has a say, because I want her voice to be heard and felt valid validated at a young age. I never want her to feel like that imposter syndrome that I felt growing up. But increasingly pap practice on a singular level. So we all the point is di people think like, it's such a pie in the sky idea. You know, only organizations can practice and people in power can practice in reality, we all have the ability to practice it. Yeah. And I think we all

Judy Tsuei 31:12

the theme right now, for this month, International Women's month is break the bias, and that we all do it. So it's not just, you know, the experiences that we've had out there that, you know, really rile us up. But like even us internally, we all do it. And so it's helpful to take a look at that. I think that one of the other things that was so valuable that you underscored in your work is this idea of empathy. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Jaya Mallik 31:38

Yeah, I mean, I think that so much, like good community work, like the EI, or non di related comes from centering empathy. I think that a lot of dysfunction within community spaces or an advocacy work happens when you D center empathy. And like, for the purpose of us all, just kind of like being on the same page of empathy is just, even if you don't relate to that person's lived experience, you can imagine or understand what it feels like. And so, for me, like my DNI practice is centered on empathy, I'll never be able to live the experience of every single person, and know what it feels like to walk in their shoes. But I will try to sit with them and understand how they feel like I will try to really understand their perspective of the experience that they're having, and then advocate for them. And so that's really like, as a practitioner, that's my role. And but I think that anybody can practice empathy. And I think that some people are born with this, like deep, beautiful gift of being just naturally empathetic. And I think that even those people have to practice, like it's a muscle, just like you run and you go work out, and you have to build your muscles and maintain your physical muscle. Empathy is an emotional muscle that you have to maintain, or you will lose it over time. And so I think it's a skill that we can all acquire. And I think it's one that's necessary in order to really practice the diversity, equity inclusion on on a really deep level. So

Judy Tsuei 33:27

I love that you were reminding people like it's a muscle that you can practice, because I hear that a lot that people are like, Oh, you hold space so well. And a lot of it is through lived experience of not having space held for me. And so I know what it's like, like you said, you know, working at meta was how you learned what you didn't want and opportunity, which is also valuable and important. But I still need to practice and there's still new opportunities for me to be like, Okay, I'm gonna take a step back, and just like, you know, have a moment. There are a couple other things that I took notes about when you were talking at the beginning, because you shared some amazing things. Like the fact that your parents had an arranged marriage, you know, like, I get there, these ideas that we think are so far away. It's been so long as it like my grandmother, when I grew up, she had her feet bound, and I remember fully about her children, her daughters, my aunts, also had their feet bound initially, and you know, like, they stopped that practice, but that was not that long ago. So yeah, how was the arranged marriage? You know, we heard a little bit about how your parents eventually got divorced. But like, I think that that's a very interesting element to have than having the freewill to go choose our partners.

Jaya Mallik 34:33

Yeah. Yeah, it was interesting, because it's like, you know, it's funny because like, I think arranged marriages can get a bad rap. And I seen them terribly, and I've seen them go really well. Like, for example, my grandparents. They are an example of an arranged marriage going really well. They knew each other for like a week, got married and had three Kids, and they were married for over 50 years. And so like, they're an example of a beautiful arranged marriage. And that was just the way things were culturally that at that time, like you defer to the wisdom and knowledge of your elders and your parents, and that was a highly held cultural value. And same for my mother's generation. I think that, you know, like, with my mother's generation is interesting, because it's like, you know, they actually found each other through a newspaper ad. So, my, I think my dad put, my dad's parents put an ad in the newspaper. And my grandmother, my mom's mother responded to the ad. And like, that was how matchmaking was done. And then they met. And, again, like, knew each other for like a week. But even my parents, even though they, they ended up divorced, they were married for over 21 years. So they were still married for a significant amount of time. So I believe that, you know, I do believe that marriage, regardless of how you arrive at it can can be successful. I see marriages that are non arranged that also are not successful. And I think it comes down to really the people. marriage to a certain degree, like having been married almost 10 years, is a crapshoot.

Judy Tsuei 36:27

I think marriage needs to be redefined as a whole, like, I tell my daughter, and one of my friends was like, Wait, like, you know, be realistic for her. I was like, well, in my experience, not only is it an emotional connection, you also need to understand it's a business contract. Like it is like a legal binding agreement. So I was like, I think that, you know, it's helpful to both paint the rosy picture and have the realistic picture. A little bit,

Jaya Mallik 36:55

I mean, most like, you know, Mo wasn't anything like, my like, I mean, it's interesting, though, because my husband and I, we like so rain marriage, in least salvation culture, even in our generation is still alive. And well, it's still really common. He and I actually met through a site that was basically like originally started as for arranged marriages, and kind of like, split off and became something that people can meet through, like, also for like people that you just wanted to pick your partner. And I think what like it came down to is just that, like, we have found a strong compatibility in each other. And he's such a like, kind, empathetic partner. And he's super supportive of me. And he, too, is validation. And he is very different, I think from a lot of, like South Asian men I had dated in the past and just very dedicated to our girls and wants to break a lot of the, I think, like, misogynistic norms that have been very commonplace in South Asian culture. Like, for example, I work full time, and he's home with the girls. And, like, does not care. And you know, and it's really wonderful to, like, have men like him in my generation, where it really redefines like, to your point what America looks like. But be are very much equal partners, in everything that we do. And we communicate. And, you know, going back to my mental health journey, my husband's been like my strongest partner and champion in my mental health journey. Like he came with me to my appointments. He learned what he needed to do, like he would get homework from the therapist of what he needed to do to be a supportive partner. And he did it like he would do it. And that made a huge difference. And so it's also set a really, really good example for my girls, regardless of who their partner ends up being of what to expect them a partner.

Judy Tsuei 39:06

So that that's so amazing. That was gonna be my other question is the fact that he is the stay at home parent, and you are the full time working parent. And I think that that's a remarkable model to be able to show to your girls. There was a podcast that I was just listening to, I think it's called Ty asked why. And his younger brother, he was like, you know, they were talking about love and trying to define it, like a 12 year olds and youngers perspective. Yeah, hearing what the parents said, and then the younger brother said, you know, like, Well, when I fall in love one day, you know, if it's like, if I marry you know, a woman, or if it's a man, and like, you know, whatever, and I was like, Whoa, the fact that this little kid who might be like nine years old, is saying that such freedom and ease is so remarkable to be able to define, yeah, okay, so I know we need to wrap up. I wanted to ask you, we could go on forever, and maybe we'll do a part two, but I wanted to ask you, in this idea of fuck saving face, what would you say? fucks me face about

Jaya Mallik 40:01

This one's hard, because there's a lot so like, do I have to pick one, go, give me the list. Give it all.

Jaya Mallik 40:12

I'm not saving phase two. Not showing up and being your true self to progeny to see not scanning in your greatness to not standing in like your intelligence and like the glory that is you to breaking generational curses.

Judy Tsuei 40:46

One also, I think the other thing that I would say effect saving face about it's like you mentioned the term invisible illness. And I actually know several people who do struggle with different elements of you know, an autoimmune condition or whatever it is. And, and even other than that, like if you just heard about the life stories of all these other people and the burdens that they carry, I think that we all have something invisible, that we're all going through. And it'd be really nice to stop pretending like everyone else's life looks so pretty and peachy keen and rosy on the outside. Because the more honest conversations that I have with the people who are closest to me, the more I find out that different people are on medication for anxiety that different people are struggling with this and that and all of these other things that you would think on the outside looking at them, oh, you have the ideal life, like the picture perfect definition of success, or whatever it is. And yeah, their lived experience, day to day is
Jaya Mallik 41:35

very different. And I'll actually like, yeah, that's a great, that's a great one to save, like saving phase two. But I will also say that like, now having now being on this side of managing this illness is like two really important things, I think it's important for people who whoever ends up listening to this to know is that my disorder is a part of me, and it doesn't define me. And, and it is possible for that to be the case for anybody who's struggling with a mental health illness. And it is hard, and it takes a lot of hard work, and time and dedication and you are worth it. Because you get one shot at this life, whether you think you come back, whether you think you don't whether you don't know, regardless, like this is like this version of this life is what you have. And so it's worth making the most of it. And also, it helps you I think, I think it helps to know that it is possible to have the mission, like I have been in full remission for quite some time, and symptom free for quite some time. And I'm really proud of that. And I think anybody who has an invisible illness knows, like, what, like a personal victory that is. And so that's also possible. And for anyone who is struggling, or you're kind of in the midst of it, and you feel like you're just like, I don't know if I can do this on the third day. Yes, you can. And, like there are people like me who are here, for people like you, and anybody can always reach out to me. I'm always there for people who are just in the thick of it. Because I know how hard it can be how lonely can be how isolated you can feel. And you're never alone. And I think the last takeaway is that if people don't accept you in your full form in your closest circle, that it's really important to evaluate that closest circle.
Judy Tsuei 43:53

Thank you for remaining. I mean, like having recovered from an eating disorder, I think, you know, which I thought was impossible that it was never going to happen. Like how can you do that when you're quote unquote, drug of choice that you are addicted to and that you have a problem a challenge, which is something you need to survive, like to sustain. But yeah, I commend anyone who's doing the hard work, and there are going to be those huge doubtful struggle moments, but you are worth it. And so thank you so much for saying that. And you said people can follow up with you. So how can they connect with you if they want to connect? Well, I get a barrage of like a bajillion emails.

Jaya Mallik 44:31

I'm on LinkedIn so people can always feel free to send me a connection request on LinkedIn. I'm also on Tik Tok. Sometimes I hate like,

Judy Tsuei 44:41

oh, my gosh, now I'm gonna go find your chick. So good.

Jaya Mallik 44:49

Luck, dog, so feel free to follow me on it. I occasionally put some BI content on there. So feel free to follow me on There's an East Bay Schrum so BSHA ra M girls with a Z at the end because if you don't put a V where you alive in the 90s and then Instagram fame handlers tick tock, so feel free to follow.

Judy Tsuei 45:19

Thank you so much. Of course.

Jaya Mallik 45:23

So much fun talking with you, Judy. I hope we do a part two you

Judy Tsuei 45:29

want to support this podcast? You can do so in crypto. If you'd like to send your dollars aka fiat currency to me via the Cash App, which uses a superfast Lightning Network. I can convert it into Bitcoin. You can find me on the Cash App by typing in dollar sign Judy sway. That's T s UEI. But if you'd actually like to send me direct cryptocurrencies, email me at hello at Fox saving face.com And we can exchange crypto wallet addresses more ways you can support the podcast or by sharing this with your friends, family, anybody you think might enjoy this and remember to go get your copy of a little book of Tibetan rites and rituals at Barnes and Noble, Amazon, audible or wherever you'd like to get your books. Make your story beautiful today.