EPISODE 70: GET ACTIVE IN SOCIAL JUSTICE POLITICS WITH JEFF LE
MEET: JEFF LE
Jeff Le has had a career at the highest levels of public policy and politics at the state, federal, and international levels. A recognized thought leader in political advocacy and representation, his analysis and opinion-writing has been featured in POLITICO Magazine, The New York Times, USA Today, The Washington Post, FOX News, The Hill, Washingtonian, Roll Call, Bustle, Forbes, local and regional newspapers, and broadcast television in 30 states.
During the height of the #StopAsianHate movement, Jeff penned an opinion piece that received national attention in POLITICO Magazine called I Thought I Knew How to Succeed as an Asian in U.S. Politics. Boy, Was I Wrong. that highlighted his experiences in workplace discrimination in politics and racism throughout his life.
Jeff is now an executive leader in technology where he is Vice President of Public Policy and External Affairs for Rhino, a fintech startup working to give renters everywhere greater financial freedom through affordable insurance options.
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Takeaways
Jeff Le’s parents came to America from Vietnam on a 32-foot raft in the 70s to escape The Fall of Saigon. He’s seen the hard work of his parents and his community — who have similar stories and backgrounds — climb their way out of poverty, yet not receive the kind of opportunities as our white counterparts.
In this episode, we talk about the fascinating work Jeff has done throughout his life to reverse the damage The Model Minority myth has caused and empower others to get active in this social justice climate.
It was such a pleasure to have had Jeff on the podcast because not only does he offer optimism but he also gives examples of actionable solutions we can take in our own lives to mitigate the helplessness and overwhelm that often comes with trying to be an ally.
We also explore:
Transcript
Judy Tsuei 00:00
I don't know if you grew up in a family like mine, but we never talked about politics. Although I will say that my parents were very involved in reading the Chinese newspaper every day and reading about the politics that were happening in Taiwan. sujet rebel. But because of this, you know, voting, I think my parents just always voted Republican, regardless of whatever the core values were. I don't know why they aligned to that. But I find that a lot of immigrant families tend to do that. So let me know if I'm wrong. I would love to hear about it.
Judy Tsuei 00:32
You can join our Facebook group f*ck saving face and have more of these conversations. Whenever moved to San Diego, I ended up meeting my really good friend Denise, who I actually called Jia, I'd always wanted an older sibling, especially an older brother. But when I met Denise, we were at this kind of market research dinner that one of her friends had organized, or one of our mutual friends and I got invited to it. And I remember her looking at me from across the room and just very intently staring at me. And she's half Asian, half white, and always jokes that she looks Latina. So nobody can really decipher. And then it's very confusing when she starts to speak Mandarin fluently. But she came up to me and we ended up bonding right away. I actually moved in with her for a short while and lives at her place in Del Mar, when I was going through a breakup, I think.
Judy Tsuei 01:18
But she acted like, you know, my older sister. And so from then on, she always called me me and I call her Jia. And she's remarkable. She ran for Congress, she worked at white in the White House, you know, she was a lawyer for a point in time that she has her own agency. And just seeing her hearing her and she's also very, very strongly faith based. So you know, when you follow her on social media, she's talking a lot about her faith and our faith in God and just those kinds of convictions and those public convictions, she was also raised by a tiger mother. So we definitely bonded over that. And just kind of having this understanding that there were these different areas of career or personal passions or giving back to the greater good that you could pursue.
Judy Tsuei 02:09
And it wasn't something that I very much understood, politics always seemed very intimidating to me. And also, you know, not something that I was ever interested in just similar to math and science, that those were not my passion areas. It's always been writing and storytelling and knowing about humanity and psychology and mental and emotional health. So as I began to follow Denise's career a bit more and just to continue to be on the periphery of her life in social media, it really helped me kind of make that area of politics or civic rights or social activism more accessible. And I also have three younger siblings and my younger sister, she's the next one in line in terms of birth order.
Judy Tsuei 02:51
She's always been huge into activism in terms of health equity, in the work that she does, in really understanding why marginalized populations are where they are, she actually just called me the other day, so that we could have a conversation about crypto. And I thought she wanted to learn about it in terms of investing. But what she wanted to learn more is whether or not this decentralized money, this defy is actually genuinely going to create more of that accessibility, which is one of the things that crypto touts or whether there are still these kind of blocks and barricades given whatever access and resources you have, as someone who systemically is on the fringes of you know, privilege.
Judy Tsuei 03:33
That's why I was so excited when Jeff Lee reached out to me, he found me, you know, he found the podcast, he was listening to it. And he was sharing a bit about what he does in terms of politics and activism and social justice, so that I really wanted to bring him on the show, not only as he's so warm and kind and good hearted. He truly is advocating for Asian American rights for rights of all marginalized populations. He's had a career at the highest levels of public policy and politics at the state, federal and international levels. He is recognized thought leader in political advocacy and representation and his analysis and opinion writing has been featured in Politico magazine, The New York Times USA Today The Washington Post's Fox News, and on and on.
Judy Tsuei 04:18
During the height of the stop Asian hate movement, Jeff penned an opinion piece that received national attention and politico called I thought I knew how to succeed as an Asian in US politics. Boy, was I wrong. And this highlighted his experiences in workplace discrimination in politics, and then racism throughout his life where he was even sharing in today's interview, as you'll hear the kind of, you know, not even microaggression outward aggression that he's experienced today, you know, B's modern days, and it was startling to me to hear those stories.
Judy Tsuei 04:50
But to know that that is one of many, and you'll also hear about his experience in Afghanistan too. And when he was working to try to bring some of the refugees out of the country Treme, Jeff is now an Executive leader in technology. He's the Vice President of Public Policy and External Affairs for Rhino, which is a fin tech startup that's working to give renters everywhere greater financial freedom through affordable insurance options. He also sits on the Homeland Security Advisory Committee for the California Governor's Office of Emergency Services. And he provides recommendations to the governor's Homeland Security Advisor on response and policies pertaining to threats, disasters, drug introductions, and things like that.
Judy Tsuei 05:33
He's a new father. So we bonded over that he graduated from the University of California, San Diego. So we bonded over, you know, food and beaches here. And he's also completed for 100 mile running races qualifying for the Boston Marathon. And he's been at every major league baseball ballpark, all 50 states and 85 countries. I think that that is remarkable. I hope that you'll get a lot out of today's conversation, it was very robust.
Judy Tsuei 05:58
There were so many topics that we covered, and that it gives you an opportunity to see that, you know, I asked him pointedly, how can we take part and have more of a voice? How can we actually create real change. And even through all of the experiences that he's gone through, he still very much approaches everything with hope and the sense of realistic idealism to remind us that we all can and should do what we can to, you know, change the world into the ways that would be healthiest for all. Without further ado, here's the interview.
Judy Tsuei 06:40
Welcome to the f*ck saving face podcast. I'm your host, Judy Tsuei. And together we'll explore mental and emotional health for Asian Americans and beyond all by breaking through taboo topics, like may not always be pretty, but it is indeed beautiful. Let's make your story beautiful today. Welcome to the F*ck saving podcast, we are in season two. And I'm really excited because I feel like season one was a great foundation for diving into an array of topics and just really getting a lot of voices shining out into the world with their unique stories.
Judy Tsuei 07:16
Season two, we're diving in a little bit deeper about harder topics. And just things that I think are not at surface level. They're deeper, they require more thought or commitment. So I'm really excited today to have Jeff Lee here, which we'll talk about the pronunciation of his last name as well. But he's worked in public policy and politics. And you know, the whole reason I wanted him to come on is because first of all, it's a super fun conversation. We've had two conversations now, before we jumped on this recording, and it's, it's just super easy.
Judy Tsuei 07:46
So I love that. But secondly, it's also because I feel like politics. I mean, even to this day is still something that I kind of both pushed away as that's not something I'm interested in. That's like, masculine, or that's not that's like for white people or other people other than me, because my parents like, you know, I think they voted Republican not even because of any reason other than that's what everybody else did in their friend group. So I'm going to turn it over to Jeff, just to first describe your story of who you are. And you know what it is that you do. Thanks for having
08:23
me, Judy. Flattery will get you everywhere you go. I appreciate that. He already feels insulated and great. Yeah, you might, you know, when I usually talk about my life, I have to always start with my parents who obviously is, you know, when two people love each other very much. Here you are. And my parents were from Vietnam, and they were both people who escaped after the fall of Saigon in April of 70. Yeah, I mean, it's really crazy. April 75. That's 46 years ago. Wow, my parents escaped on a 32 foot raft, got picked up in Thailand in the Philippines, took them six years, they made it to United States landed in Long Beach, Long Beach, California.
09:03
I was born a year later. And that journey, I think, really represented a lot of what I would run into later in life growing up in Southern California, as the son of Vietnamese refugees, and starting a gardening company. And it was one of the first things I ever did as a kid was working for my parents mowing lawns on the weekends. And the two things you learn about gardening for people. Number one, manual labor really sucks. It's really hard. It teaches you very quickly the value of education.
09:36
And the second thing is that people treat you based on what they assume about you on what you do. And that's something that you know, is your kid you don't really think about that. But it was really very noticeable how you were treated when you're seeing this to help. And I think that definitely changed the way I looked at the world which is the world should be fair, but it's not and we should be doing more to level the playing field and that's probably Part of the reason why I got into public policy and politics was sort of this deep desire to, you know, try to put people in the best position to succeed. And you know,
10:09
in America, it's, especially in the America today, it's not about necessarily, you know, your intellectual horsepower, your abilities, your potential, a lot of it is who, you know, luck, you know, the other sort of factors and networks and communities that are actually already out of your control to begin with, based on where you are born, why, and how. And so the the silver lining for me is, has been trying to think about what I could do to better contribute to how others could best benefit from the American Dream, which is the opportunity for someone to be able to do anything they want to do. But it's generally not them, it's their kids.
10:50
So that's like the policy matter I've been focused on. And that's something that took me into really three chapters in my life, the first, you know, being in the international world trying to work and support different countries around the world, I got to work in 85 different countries. And while I think most notably in Afghanistan, which we'll definitely talk about over the course, you know, from 2010, to 2013. The second chapter was in politics. So being able to work in Congress working from some, you know, political democracy, building nonprofits, and also working for the governor of California for five years.
11:21
And then now in this sector of things, I work in the tech sector, but trying to, you know, provide support to the most vulnerable and right now specifically focused on the housing crisis that we see in America, specifically, how do we lower barriers into affordable, stable, safe housing. And so those are sort of the three like things for me. But fundamentally, you know, I believe in, you know, a social justice agenda. I believe that, as an individual, you have incredible power to make a big difference. The hardest thing is convincing yourself, you need to do something. And then when you do that thing, how do you work with others to amplify that voice? That energy, that passion? So I'm looking forward to talking today about all of
Judy Tsuei 12:00
that. That was such an amazing synopsis? I loved hearing all of that. You're currently on the East Coast? Yes.
12:07
Yes. I'm based here in DC. I think you called a swamp. It's where the capital is the capital that got overrun earlier this January. Can you believe that happened this year? No, I just this year. This year, my God, it seems like that happened on inauguration of a president happened, the murder of women in Asian businesses in Atlanta that sparked a lot of Asian American Pacific Island and activism, you know, the passage of legislation to try to support those efforts. It you know, the pull out of Afghanistan happened last month. You know, so there's, there is so much newsworthy things, but we're more than 18 months into a pandemic with no end in sight. And all the days blur together. So it's, it's this is the times we live in.
Judy Tsuei 12:56
I want to ask you and what you said in your introduction, this idea of the American dream. And, you know, I mean, there's been talk about that it doesn't exist anymore. There's, you know, a lot of when I was living abroad in Taiwan Fast Company actually reached out and asked to interview because all of these children of immigrants were moving back to their parent countries. And then with the housing crisis, and I live in California. So you know, that's very big deal. I would love to get your take on what you feel like the American dream is now how it's shifting. And you know, why we all buy into it?
13:34
So so if you zoom out, right, if you zoom out in the American story, and you look at every other country in the world, it is true. There are very few countries on earth that your parents could start somewhere, and that you can be in a completely different profession, class standard of living state of being. It is true that in America, it's one of the most unique escalators, right? In most countries, you're climbing the stairs with like 100 pounds of material, right? But in America, there is a chance you can take an escalator an elevator, or in some cases a helicopter depending on again, what you're born into. Yeah, I think that
Judy Tsuei 14:14
stat from crypto Sorry to interrupt that 80% of millionaires didn't come from money. Yeah, that's a fascinating stat.
14:22
Well, I want highlights is sort of, so it's hard balance of on the one hand, grit and your life experience, being able to sort of roll with difficulty and be in overcome challenge. That's an important skill set to the acquisition and accumulation of wealth and success that is important. That creates the degree of innovation and creativity and passion, right? But we also live in this bizarre Puritan mindset that if you work hard at all, it's all good.
14:53
And if you have horrible things happen to you, it's because you didn't work hard enough. And that's bogus for the most part that is bogus. So I think that we sort of have to delineate that yes, actually, you know, having unique capabilities and skills at an important time where you have this perfect alignment of creativity and opportunity can lead to a positive outcome.
15:14
But at the same time, you could have all of those skills and still have failure, right, you think of the number of startups that, you know, people start, the vast, vast majority are not unicorns that are publicly traded, the vast majority are the ones you never heard of, because they, you know, cut out in flames. And so, you know, we're so focused on that unique circumstance, the outlier. Yeah, that the outlier is what we perceive to be the standard. That's right, you know, and Apple is Apple, Google is Google. Right? Yeah. But if you see the accumulation of wealth in the United States, you know, the amount of wealth that the top 1% have, versus everybody else is gone exponentially up.
15:52
And I recently saw a really interesting data point that suggests that the accumulation of wealth as a percentage in the United States today is about the same as just before the French Revolution. So not to try to make a comparison, I was really interested that, you know, you have sort of this conglomerate of of a cartel of people that have pretty much everything. And then there's the few that use those things for everything in their life. And then those people get to use it to fly to space. It's sort of fascinating, by the way, that was this year, too.
Judy Tsuei 16:25
Yeah, that's an you know, what you were saying about? It kind of lends into the model minority myth that you think there's something wrong with you, if you're not meeting these standards that are exceptional standards that don't apply to everyone. And like the disparity in wealth among Asian Americans has increased, like the wealthier and wealthier and the poor have gotten poorer. So that's a completely different thing. And this idea, you know, I think that especially in learning about crypto over the last few months, and really diving deep into hearing these terms of the financial cartel, and like all of these different things that, you know, we've just not really thought about before, perhaps potentially, because we've been like in these like, bubbles of illusion before the pandemic came and kind of just threw everything up in the air.
Judy Tsuei 17:07
So I think now, you know, the work that you're doing is really admirable. And before we got on to this conversation, we talked a bit about Afghanistan, and about the work that you were doing there. And can you talk a little bit more about that? Because I think that parlays into the American dream, and, and still, to this day, people aiming to come here to leave circumstances just like many of our immigrant parents did. I mean, your parents came here by way of raft like, no, so yeah, that's just one generation ago.
17:34
I know. And, and it's funny, at least in your history class, you know, the Mayflower, but everyone has their own Mayflower, which is ours was a raft, other people's have a boat, or Ellis Island or across borders, right. And so I think that is important to highlight and see the point you raised about Asian Americans, I should say, I'm really glad you brought up the model minority lie that comes up.
17:58
And let me just say, it's largely driven by the inability to collect data with precision, actually, because if you were to collect data with precision, you would find if you put all the data together, yes, Asian American Pacific Islanders tend to have higher high school college graduation rates, yes, they tend to have a higher median income. However, if you actually just take time to parse it out in the 50 ethnic groups, or the 100 languages spoken, at least, you'll find that for example, with Vietnamese Americans, they have lower rates of high school and college graduation, they have lower access to health care, they have higher Kobe validities, they have more instances in the criminal justice system, actually, more so in all those factors than other groups that you picture as, quote, unquote, marginalized.
18:45
So that's just one group of Vietnamese Americans, that's 46 years for most of us, right. So another group came after relations were normalized between the United States and Vietnam and mentioned any for 1995. But for the most part, these like newer Americans, your starting point in America is at a different time, right? At the same time, you also have Chinese Americans, Japanese Americans that have been here, since before California became a state, for example, and actually take it even a step further.
19:13
So you know, these Asian Americans were working on the railroads, the Transcontinental Railroad specifically, or starting some of the more interesting businesses in San Francisco, those Asian Americans, that lineage has been here longer than most European Americans, but who is seen as the other. Right? I mean, when the Japanese, for example, were in turn during the World War Two, do you do you see, German or Italian Americans being in turn to the answer's no.
19:41
So you know, I think there's such an easy sort of function of scapegoat or like, oh, we'll just point to this or like, and then what's happened today is Asians are then used as a wedge. So you're told, Oh, they're model minority, which means by the way, they work really hard you other group don't. And again, like we talked about, it's complete luck and other stuff. stances. And then what happens is it creates a wedge between other communities of color and Asian Americans historically.
20:07
And as you know, divide and conquer is a white supremacy move. And it's a very effective one, by the way. So I say all that in context to say, Why did I go to Afghanistan? Right? And I felt very strongly after September 11, and I'm sure you remember where you were, that changed my interest in the world, I needed to see it and explore it. And my parents coming from poverty, and nothing would always say, why are you traveling to all these poor places, because, you know, we escaped poverty, so you have to live in poverty.
20:37
But I felt this strong calling on what you know what the power of America is, which is not the missiles, or the soldiers or any of this. It's the values, it's the potential, it's the belief that you can come here and be a part of something beyond anything else, just the the, the ideal, the ideal of difference is what makes us really strong. And I felt that was really important, especially in the global stage. And so having the chance to work in Afghanistan, there really two chapters in the time there.
21:06
In 2010, and 2011, I worked in the international development space, focus really on economic development projects, but specifically, large scale road construction, which I'm sure you can imagine, if you have functioning roads, and maybe you can get stuff to market faster, you can better connect communities, right? It was partly a an effort to bring goodwill of Western things. But it was also in the midst of conflict. So you would build a road one day, the road would get blown up and you'd build it again. And that's how it was for the two years was really difficult.
21:38
And so much of that you kind of felt like Groundhog's Day, the second half of the time, they're 2012 and 2013, I was working for human rights organization focused on empowering women, and specifically training women, girls, paralegals, lawyers and judges, on their rights that were enshrined in the Afghan constitution that formulated after the fall the first Taliban government. So I felt a deep commitment to that work, because again, being from Vietnam, there was no democracy, there was none of this stuff. And you know, a part of me sort of felt this desire and recognition that the work we did in Afghanistan, maybe it would have created an opportunity that wasn't like Vietnam.
22:19
And in recent events, I was wrong. It was certainly very similar. And I'll just tell you one story about that. August 15, was when the Taliban came into Kabul, and my mother sees it on TV, she calls me. And she sort of opines, and reflects and says, you know, I'm seeing this on TV now. And there, I don't know, if you recall, there are people running the chase airplanes. And you see people jumping onto the airplane and then falling from the sky. And my mom's like, that's horrible. That's way worse than what happened for us. 46 years ago.
22:51
Now, this is my mom, she lost everything. She knew everything. She had everything she was going to be. And she said that it was worse there in Afghanistan. So that was like just a really interesting parallel. And also, like, if you think about, you know, refugees that come to America, and the circumstances now where you have African refugees, you know, being settled here in the United States. 46 years ago, my parents were the Afghan refugees. Right. And when they came to this country, the polling for that was about 32%. approval. And I don't think we think about that now.
23:25
You know, nobody thinks oh, those Vietnamese rights, you know, especially in southern California, oh, yeah, they're pretty, they're around. And they're very engaged and active and, you know, part of our, you know, kaleidoscope of communities. But you know, for the past month, Judy, it's been really working nonstop to do everything I could to bring back the the Afghan staff out of, you know, insecurity, in a really bad situation. I felt tremendous guilt from that. Because, you know, the staff I hired for these programs. I'm the one who recruited them.
23:56
I'm the one that offered them the opportunity. They're the ones who took it. But we both knew if they took the job, their life was under threat. Yeah. And I was in circumstances where they were the difference of whether our project was successful or not, and probably whether I would get hurt or not. And that local support was everything, because they had this dream of a better country to just like I did. But then, you know, then it wasn't to be.
24:22
And some of my staff were able to get out. And I tried my best to get as many as I could out. And sadly, that's not the case. And the women judges I worked with, I mean, just the same thing. You tried to do everything you can and, you know, it's amazing, Judy 1000s of alumni have the experience. So whether that was in uniform or humanitarian work all sort of came together to bring their unique networks to try to get people out to the airport and you probably saw those stories about the airport. Pretty amazing what the will of individuals can do.
24:52
Also pretty horrible to know that there are people that are still left behind and probably will never get out. And that's affected the I have slept for the past month very to be honest with you. But, you know, I still believe in what America is. It's just there's some some moments where you kind of realize that America is far from perfect as well.
Judy Tsuei 25:12
Well, I mean, you had said, like, the incredible power of an individual. And I think that that goes both ways. I think like, you know, we look for the shining examples, and like people who are doing all the good. And then similarly, there's all the people who work in the shadows. And so I feel like that's just humanity as it is. And you know, you don't give up and you don't give in, which is incredible, the work that you've done. I think that with this kind of civic duty, and not just for America, and it's shocking to me how, you know, we grew up in the environments we grew up in, and there's subtle, subliminal messaging that you get throughout your life. And when I I think you still do this in public school. Yes. You like do the Pledge of
25:54
Allegiance. Allegiance? Yeah. Blood. Yeah.
Judy Tsuei 25:56
Yeah. And so, you know, when I was living in Shanghai, and I was doing a language exchange with a very young man, he was like, 17, I think I think at the time, I was 26. So, you know, we were doing this language exchange, and then somehow the topic of 911 came up. And it had been like five years at that point. And then he was saying, well, everybody here in China was like, really excited about all the Americans getting killed.
Judy Tsuei 26:19
And I'm like, what, and the level of, you know, pride for the US that came forward was shocking to me that I just hadn't experienced that I probably because I never needed to, I mean, unless you watch the Olympics, and then you feel that pride for your country. And, you know, I had to end the lesson. And then a couple of weeks later, one of my very good friends had the very same experience during his language exchange with two other young women.
Judy Tsuei 26:44
And so it was a big eye opener to see, like, you know, all these stories, we've been told about how great the USA as well, in countries around the world, I don't know how they perceive it, because their experience of the US has been different. And also, that it was just more about like, the humanity of cheering for someone's demise. That seemed to be very shocking to me.
Judy Tsuei 27:05
But then, when I think about China, and like, you know, the other women who are working, as you did hard labor over there, you know, because they come from the countryside to the big city, and just thinking they will never get out of this life. This is their life. But I'm so lucky because I was born in the US. And so I have a passport that enables me to do these other things. Just it's not just
27:28
can I just say it's not a passport of this off the passport of movement, but the passport of choice? Yeah. So you, you get to choose whatever you want to do with your life. And thinking about the vast majority of the world, that is not the case. Mm hmm. So there is a point of privilege, but also a point of great responsibility that comes with that.
27:48
And that the reality is our country is too big of a player and actor to not have an effect in other parts of the world. And in American culture, right, American movies, American, you know, our American literature has such a ripple in the world. And of course, like American innovation, and technology has had an effect in the world in a significant way. Crypto being one of those things.
28:10
Yeah, yeah. So to think that, like what you do in Southern California doesn't have a connection to the rest of the world is a little silly, because it all does is all connected. I think just you know, taking the you know, realizing that the moccasin on the other on the other foot is different how you walk? That is important to know. And yeah, your experience. Not many Americans have experienced that, because many of them haven't left to see it. Yeah,
Judy Tsuei 28:35
I think what you're talking about, I love that you're mentioning the responsibility with rehab, because I think in season one, we talked a lot about, you know, immigrant parents, and everybody's just struggling to survive, and you get to the point of surviving, and then how do you start to develop a philanthropic mindset when you came from nothing? How do you develop that idea of like a community when you're just trying to feel safe within your own, you know, network?
Judy Tsuei 28:57
So I think that what I'm saying right now, that responsibility for anybody who's listening, if you do have the opportunity, just to open your eyes, I remember, part of the there was like a class to reassimilate back to your home country. When I was in China and for expats, and I was like, that's such a weird thing. Why would you need to learn how to go back to your home country? But then I went back to the US from Shanghai to count.
Judy Tsuei 29:20
Oh, my gosh, I was like, Do you know how much stuff is here? Do you know when you go to the supermarket? Like that is crazy.
29:29
Yeah, I remember this year. Yeah, this year, or whenever I would travel overseas, I'd go back to the cereal aisle. And I would be I mean, obviously, I mean, Fruity Pebbles, fantastic. Lucky Charms. Just the options you have, obviously also, like air conditioning or ice in your drink or customer service. Yeah,
29:50
I mean, like, order.
29:52
functionality. Yeah, I will say, Judy, I mean, I'm glad you know, there are two lessons I had from working overseas that I wanted to share. One it was universally, what I found was the wherever I went wherever work wherever I traveled, the people who had the least always gave the most. Yes. And I would ask people like, you have almost nothing like why are you so giving? And the answer was always a combination of both appreciation and gratitude.
30:22
And so grateful for the day, right was sort of the translation. I kept hearing in multiple countries. So I tried to sort of approach that. And if you think about from a philanthropic perspective, I think that is actually really powerful. The second thing I learned from that was, the more I traveled, the farther I went, the more I missed home. And home isn't necessarily stuff and homeless people. And you know, the reason why I transitioned away from international work was because I felt deeply, I asked myself, like, what was I contributing directly back home back in my home state in California, where where my parents are in Georgia.
30:55
And that's when I made that transition to go in the public policy work. So that was sort of how I veered into the state government in Sacramento of all places. But, you know, I mean, I mean, you know, this living in California, but for all of your listeners, California is 40 million people. That's about the size of Canada. It's the fifth largest economy in the world, ahead of the United Kingdom and Italy, and behind Germany. It has an $85 billion agriculture industry.
31:22
So yes, Napa Valley. Yes, the almonds, but just about every fruit, you can think of avocados comes from California, you think about all of the military industrial complex, you know, people are flying stuff out of Southern California, there's 30 military bases that connect to the Asian Pacific, right? You know, think about, obviously Silicon Valley, yes, Hollywood, all of those things, but also the Smart Manufacturing, like your Tesla's these other things.
31:47
So it's a place where like, so much, there's so much intellectual horsepower to create what the world of tomorrow, which we're still trying to grapple with, this has been part of the challenge in this time of transition. But you know, being in the state government, you got to have the front row seat. And there's other things that people don't like to talk about, which is that even though it's one of the richest places on Earth, it has some of the highest rates of poverty.
32:10
It has a endemic homelessness crisis. It has issues of people not having living wages, and has significant reliance on fossil fuel. It has an issue of climate change, where you have fires pretty much all year round. And that's totally normal. absolutely normal. By the way, not only are there fires this year, you also have a record drought this year. And next year, you'll probably have record floods and drought plus flood kind of seems to make sense. It's, it's, it's a lot of everything at the same time very quickly. And you have to think like, how does that affect everyday people, but also how do they affect the air you breathe, or the way of life you want to have can't be easy. And that's everywhere else in the world, which is California represents so much more. So as a general
Judy Tsuei 33:03
person, who, you know, whether they're new to learning about their civic duty, and how to become more involved in public policy, where it can actually make a change, because I think that there's also a story that goes around that, you're not actually going to make that big of a difference. There's so much like legislation and like, you know, all of this. And so and I know, I can sense and even just my community of people growing increasingly more passionate about the causes that they're seeing, you know, being becoming more righteous and social justice and all of these kinds of kinds of things. What would you recommend?
33:35
I mean, that's like asking, what's the meaning of life? Could you tell? Yeah, no, if I were, if I were, you know, Jo Q citizen, or Maggie Q citizen, the first thing I would ask is, what do you really care about? Because if my belief is you really, if you really care about everything, you're gonna get nothing done. You have to make a choice. And it's largely because of bandwidth because you have your life, you have to pay bills, you got the mortgage, you have, you know, you want to get to soccer practice for the kids. You want to see your friends.
34:07
So like, where is the bandwidth and space for like political engagement or advocacy in your community? So first and foremost, identifying like, what resonates to you? Is it you know, is it your concerns about about better infrastructure where you are big topic in America today? Right. You know, there's a potential package in congress that's coming down, that is a transformative piece of legislation if it isn't acted in the forms that it could be, is it the resettlement of different refugee communities? Right. I mean, you have 1000s of Afghans who are moving to places across the country, including Virginia, Oklahoma, Texas, California, Minnesota, maybe your passion is to help them because they're, they're going to be the Americans of today and tomorrow to maybe that's your passion, right? Is your passion, you know, supporting supporting women and girls.
Judy Tsuei 35:23
And of all of that so much, because I feel like these are simple things that you can do, but then they can potentially have a big impact. And as you were saying, you know, everything is interconnected. And so making a ripple effect in one area. I think the whole podcast is about mental and emotional health. And if you can make yourself a healthier, more whole individual, the impact of that around you is phenomenal. I mean, just all the time, even when I'm going through a hard time or a heart ache, and I'm talking to one of my friends about it, they keep telling me, it's actually really inspiring to hear you work through that or to watch you work through that.
Judy Tsuei 38:40
Because then it makes me believe that I can go through something hard. And that's just me living my life. It's not even, you know, trying to do anything bigger. So I think for everybody listening who can just live your life with the integrity and your belief system and remembering that you're not the only one both from you're not alone if you're struggling or feeling challenges, or depression or anxiety or anything like that. But you're also not alone in terms of the responsibility that we were talking about with other people.
39:07
Yeah, and I think yeah, I think to the point, you're, you're gonna say just put a fine point on it. You sort of I think apply intentionality. Like there has to be sort of a real commitment to the betterment of people around you and yourself. And having that Northstar, so important cuz it's so easy to get distracted. There's so much stuff going on, right? We just talked about the new cycle this year, we've been talking about many other stuff that happen, right? It's so easy to get lost in it and to be burnt out and frustrated by it.
39:35
That's why you have to kind of keep focused on the prize. I will say I will give you one piece of knowledge that my wife's father tells me especially on trying to do big things he says, you know, the best way to eat an elephant is one bite at a thing. He's very right. And so that's how you have to approach all of these, you know, big hairy ideas, right? It's, it doesn't just like you don't just eat it like a snake. You know, it has to be there's a process to it. There's gonna be some bumps along the way. But that's how you know it's fulfilling and enriching.
40:04
Because it isn't easy. Because the best things were probably a challenge. It was a struggle, you probably hit a low and then you overcome. And then more importantly, you learn from it. And then you apply that accordingly, with loved ones, and the people that helped you get there, because it's never about one person in this. One person can help spark something but a movement or sort of a group of people coming together for a greater good that that is a multiple person effort. And yes, it's hard to one person, but to think that you're the only person doing that is a little silly, right? You have to harness that accordingly.
Judy Tsuei 40:36
I love it. So every time I do one of these interviews, that the last question that I asked is in this idea of flex saving face, you know, what can we what story? Can we rewrite? What do we need to let go of that is just something we've worried about, that we don't need to worry about anymore? Or what would you just like to shine a spotlight on that you wish more people would know about? Okay,
40:57
two things. One, I believe very strongly that the more you as the individual can accept who you are, and all the things of you are the good, the bad, the ugly, the things you can't change, the better of a person you're going to be, and a more honest, more successful person, you'll be, you know, I spent and we, I mean, you're an Asian, I'm an Asian, we've talked about it, I spent my entire life running away from my Vietnamese heritage, because the whole point is the blenden, fit in, laugh at all the jokes have the same sandwiches for lunch, like everyone else, because there's this sort of sense of, you kind of put your head down, and you're grateful for the opportunity you get, but don't stick out too much, or bad things will happen to you.
41:41
And it's true. I mean, in each sort of chapter in my life by sort of embracing some Asian pneus. In me, someone lets me know that that Asian is actually not, that's actually not the thing they appreciate about you. But actually embracing that part of you, it is you. And so I certainly felt when I was able to claim that heritage of mine, it really changed the way I looked at the world, but also change the ability for me to communicate with people and really advocate for change.
42:09
It's funny when I worked in politics, and when I worked in government, and when I worked in nonprofits and these other things. I never put myself as the Asian person just never because I felt like it was holding me back in some way. But actually, in retrospect, I should have embraced the Asian bar because it is, I probably would have been better at what I did. And I'll tell the story to your listeners about why I've embraced that and what I'm doing with it now. You know, last this is now 18 months. So March of last year, I was flying from my last workshop before the whole world collapsed. This is March 2020. And I had just come out of a meeting in Reno.
42:44
And I was going to the airport and after security, you know, you're kind of rushing your gait because you're late as everybody is. And a woman comes up to me, and she just spits this giant loogie in my face. Yeah, giant hawk and loogie. It's dripping down my face. And she says, hey, you know, go back to where you come from. Right? And I'm just telling you right now, God, I don't think she meant California or DC or wherever I was living in time. And as an Asian, your goal is defuse tension, your goal is to move on as quickly as possible. And for me, it's through humor. I always have a joke. And actually, I have been spit on before.
43:23
So I actually have an answer to this reply. Yeah, which is crazy. But that's again, if you're in a marginalized group, where the deal surviving, right, and I had a joke, and the joke was this, the joke was, if I knew it was gonna rain, I should have brought my umbrella. And here's the thing, they're about a dozen people around. And security's Camiel 20 feet away, they had already looked away. They already didn't care they've moved on, because I didn't matter. And this is me the model minority here, right. And if I were you and I were model minority, that might be great. But our status is arbitrary. It's conditional, and it's determined by others.
44:04
And you can go from being a successful group that everybody points to. I'll look at all these Asians graduate from college, to someone that gets spit on randomly by a stranger and nobody cares. And what I realized from that was that I needed to say something because obviously no one else was right. Yeah. And so a couple months go by, and then now you might recall, the virus got pretty crazy that March, April, May. And actually my parents now live in Southern Georgia, they run a free range organic chicken farm down there.
44:35
They've been there 20 years, it's been home for them. And over that time, at the end of March, there were three parts of the world that had the biggest outbreaks of COVID-19. One was New York City, as you might recall. One was in Italy. Do you remember that all those Italians were having these issues? And then southern Georgia, there was a big funeral down about 20 minutes from my parents live and tons of people that hospitalized and died down there. But imagine In the level of crisis, because it's rural America, so there's not like services or anything. It's not like Southern California, southern Georgia and Southern California couldn't be more different.
45:10
And over that time, my parents noticed that they were, you know, they had built friendships and communities and did business with people. And they found that they were having less connectivity or those next month. And it wasn't until that August about six months later, that, you know, I talked to my mom, and my mom was, there was something on her mind. I was like, so tell me what's going on. And she's like, you know, I'm the neighbor. And it was really talking to us down here. I was like, What do you mean, what's going on? And they're like, well, one of the neighbors, you know, told us that they couldn't hang out with us anymore, because we were the reason why the virus was here. And
45:41
I mean, never mind that that sounds so asinine, and ridiculous. But to hear my mother, who my entire life told me that as being an Asian, we would never be American, actually secretly thought that she could be American too, and realize that she couldn't, that was just crushing. And so what I did, Judy, is that, like, pushed me. And I was like, Okay, I need to do something. And so like, I thought, okay, what can I do? And, you know, like we talked about, you start local. And so I wrote in the local newspaper, it was like a Sunday opinion piece about the contributions of immigrants during COVID-19, as small business owners, as frontline, essential workers.
46:18
And also what people don't talk about is the research and development work on the vaccines were largely immigrants that run that, right all the bench science, that's all from immigrants, all the brainpower from immigrants, and then distribution of that by immigrants. And in rural Georgia, the only places that you can find a doctor, they're usually from another country, because they're filling a hard to fill a slot that they couldn't get an American citizen to fill.
46:45
So it was very clear to me what what matters. And so I wrote the piece, and it was the end of August last year, and two things happen. One, a lot more people read it than I thought, you know, but 100,000 views of it, which for local paper in Middle Georgia, it's kind of crazy. Yeah. And the second thing is, this is the point that I think really took me back. But when they read it, they talked to my parents, and they apologized. Oh, wow. Which is maybe the most unlikely thing that happened in 2020. If you think about it. Yeah. And so the lesson here is that when you speak with, with honesty, and you meet people where they are, it could matter.
47:29
And what I realized was that my responsibility, then was to be able to speak for others that didn't have the same conduits to do so. And I wanted to use all the life experience that I had running policy or being overseas in conflict zones, to talk about, how do we actually deliver services to the most vulnerable people? And why did these most vulnerable people, why do they matter? In our society, right. And that's what started my writing, and eventually, you know, became the story. And this is kind of what I wanted to get to this is the second half of it. So answering your your very thoughtful question. The second half of it is that Asians are not white.
48:05
And I know, I know, it might blow your mind, in my mind. But it's true. We'd say people think we're white adjacent. And we're white enough, you know, who really believes that we're white, sometimes can use a color. Sometimes they think we're white. Sometimes white people think we're white. But you know, what's really interesting is a lot of Asians think they're white enough to, and again, when was one thing for me to get spit on but a year later, right? These Asian women in Atlanta got hunted and killed just because of their background and heritage.
48:40
And I don't know what it was. I don't know if you remember where you were for that, Judy. But I got hundreds of messages from people hundreds. And you know, some from friends in certain circles that I would expect to you know, hear from because they want to, you know, they're raising an issue up. But the thing that was very powerful to me was it came from people that were completely apathetic to social justice or engagement. So the Asians I would describe as caring about three things, paying the mortgage, their kids education, and the corporate ladder. And these were the same Asians that were saying, Where can I give money? Who should I write to?
49:16
Where should they make a phone call? Because they connected the dots that those women that were murdered, it could have been their kids, their spouse, their loved one, and that we weren't white. And it was a real fascinating awakening, which then I think, created this sort of inertia and effort for Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders to be watched it I'm sure you saw videos of, you know, grandma's getting beat up in the street by being right. And guess what? While people were watching, so you'd see grandma get beat up people just standing there, just like the same people that watch me get spit in the face. And so one of the things I would tell you know, our listeners here is, you can be an ally, and not just a bystander to these horrible, horrible accidents.
49:59
You're human. Hannity. And I encourage people, and we'll put it in the show notes. But, you know, Asian Americans, advancing justice has a great bystander training on how you can help deescalate an issue. Right? That's one of the most important things like I tell people to actually learn about Asian American history, again, 50 nationalities, 100 languages. PBS has an amazing documentary on Asian Americans highly recommend, everyone should do it. I tell all of my, you know, companies I speak to, or organizations that that should be an important just discussion, not just in Asian American heritage month in May, but in general. And that, you know, learning the history is really important, because a lot of Asians don't know their history.
50:36
Yeah. Again, there were people here that have been here longer than most white people. So I think that's, you know, I think most people don't realize that the Japanese and the Chinese have been here longer than the Irish. Yeah, I don't think that's what people think about. But that's true. And you know, within your organization's, you know, to have cultural trainings about understanding different cultures or, you know, providing, you know, 360 assessments on your employees or, you know, providing an environment because here's the thing, the vast majority of self reported acts of hate, two thirds of them perpetrated against women, and the vast majority in two places, one, randomly outside in public walkways and spaces, and to, at their places of work. So this is a very close to home thing.
51:20
And, you know, I mean, let's be real here, like you, as an Asian woman haven't wait for an idea. I mean, yeah, I have to make jokes. Like, I'll give you an example. A few months ago, two drunk guys went up to me in the afternoon, asked me if they could rub my belly. Because I was like Buddha. And yeah, and, you know, again, I this is actually I've been asked this before, so I have an answer. And my answer is, you know, I mean, I don't know if it's a good idea, because you know, I'm not a genie, you look any wishes. And that de escalates issue, by the way, the last time a police officer, about 15 feet away, didn't care, didn't matter, I didn't matter.
51:55
And you don't matter. That's, that's something to care about. So there's so much we could be doing here to sort of break down anti racism that, you know, is in solid areas who, all communities, right, yeah. And I will say the last thing thrilly important, really, really important. But to friends and loved ones in your life? Have them? Have them tell their family story. Very few actually ever ask. And I say that in comparison, because like, you know, I have black friends who, when something horrible happens in the black community, they're just exhausted, because they get inundated with Are you okay and exhausted. But if something happens to Asians who are like, Wait, you're talking to us, like we exist, it's a very different phenomenon.
52:34
So it is an opportunity, sort of just to educate and have a discussion about, you know, issues that come from being told that your English is really good, or like, where are you really from? Or, you know, do you give a massage is a special and you know, these sort of things that again, you and I just shake our heads, it's super normal for us. But I know for others, it'd be shocking to hear, but we don't talk about it. Because we carry this mindset of, well, he just puts his work hard enough, it'll go away. And like, it's actually our fault. So worse and ashamed of it. Right? Or like, Oh, yes, you know, everyone else feels with it.
53:09
So we should have still in the two. It's not true. It's ridiculous. So those are a couple things I would recommend your listeners think about. And when you when you have your Asian friend that's dealing with stuff, because there will be other acts of hate, actually, and I'll be, you know, plug into facts here. And in California, right, hate crime, from 2019 to 2020, went up 107%.
53:30
For Asian Americans, that's over about 33% overall. And then the FBI reported that last year had the highest hate crime numbers in 12 years. So it's not random. It's pretty systemic. And it happens when, you know, people get told they're the reason why a virus is here, or because you don't deserve to be American, or whatever the case is. And in times of conflict, people will bring that up. And that's a time honored tradition of trying to value to devalue others make yourself feel better.
Judy Tsuei 54:03
I think what you said about the fact that we need to understand that we are not white, that came to me when I realized that I had married a white man had a half and half, you know, child and then realize I still haven't made it there, I'm never going to make it, it's never going to be enough. I'm just never going to be white. And it was such a big kind of like, Aha, because both again, inherently in my family of you need to do everything you can to fit in to the cultural, larger messaging, that all got integrated into me.
54:37
Yeah, sure. I mean, you can follow me on Twitter at Jeffrey D Li, which I hope we can put in the notes there. And hopefully, by that point, I'll have my website up. But you know, so it's not just writing to I'm also doing political commentary on different TV as well, which is pretty hilarious to think about, but how many Asians you see on TV. So actually, it's is important, and it reaches others that you wouldn't reach otherwise. But I'm looking forward to being able to continue the conversation with folks if they want to keep in touch and, you know, share ideas and looking forward to learning from everybody here. Because, you know, it takes it's more than just a village. It really is a world of people. It really is.
Judy Tsuei 56:35
Yeah. And you know, during the season I I've interviewed the first non API guest, and really starting to bridge more conversations along those lines, and you know, advocating for all different communities. And so it's really wonderful. So thank you so much for your time. I'm so grateful.
56:51
Thank you for having me. God was a pleasure.
Judy Tsuei 56:54
Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, or learn something new, please do share it with someone in your life, a friend, family member or colleague who might like to hear this message to also as I mentioned, we are switching things up for season two, in terms of having interviews for the next couple of months, so that I can make some space to work on the strategic content marketing agency that I also own and all this other good stuff that's coming out in the world.
Judy Tsuei 57:22
So if you want to stay in touch, you can find us on all the social channels, or send us a note from our websites, f*ck saving face or even wild hearted words.com See you next week. Thank you so much for listening to today's episode. You can follow me on Instagram at F*cx saving face or have an honest conversation with me in my private Facebook group f*ck saving face.
Judy Tsuei 57:45
That's f*ck without the U. if you enjoy this work, please help support and sustain it. The best ways to do that are to share it with your friends and networks. Subscribe rate and review on your listening platforms. And of course through your thoughtful financial donations. You can buy me a coffee or treat me a lunch or share it even bigger lab at F*ck saving face.com Again, that's f*ck witout the U.
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