EPISODE 56: HOW TO BE A VEGAN TRIATHLETE WITH CHI PHAM

Sep 24

MEET CHI PHAM

Fascinated with designing and problem solving for behavior change, especially when it can help people live better lives, Chi Pham is a Google team member working on developing health equity initiatives.

She’s also a plant-based athlete advocating for diversity in sports.

Visit her website: http://www.chiphamdesign.com/

EPISODE 56: HOW TO BE A VEGAN TRIATHLETE WITH CHI PHAM

Takeaways

Join me in today’s episode with Chi Pham, a Vietnamese American triathlete and Google team member. We have a very interesting conversation about what it means to be physically strong as a woman, as a woman of color, an Asian American Pacific Islander, of how to pursue the things that you want and meet your parents halfway.

You'll hear that beauty and health and your personal pursuit of your passions can be redefined in so many ways.

We also cover:

Transcript

Judy Tsuei 0:00

Today is a super fun interview with Chi Pham, who's a plant-based athlete. If you go to her Instagram fit_pham, you will find that she is an Ironman triathlete. She believes in diversity, in sports. She's Vietnamese and proud. And she's a UX designer at Google. And she got her Master's in Public Health at Berkeley. So Go Bears.

Judy Tsuei 0:20

What I loved about this conversation is that we touch upon the standards of beauty for an Asian American woman that strong was not necessarily what was considered beautiful by our family of origin. We talked about being plant based, and how different that was, especially if you grew up in an environment where meat was seen as a status symbol or as something that our parents didn't get growing up. So of course, they were going to buy it and feed it to their children, and then talking about equity and health care with the work that she does.

Judy Tsuei 0:52

And of course, she's in Hawaii. So it's such a wonderful, incredible tie to the place that My heart feels like it belongs to, I'm excited for you to listen to what she has to say, to hopefully experience a bit of that Hawaiian mana and Hawaiian spirit and to walk away with maybe a bit more motivation to pursue anything that it is that you want to do, even if perhaps your family of origin doesn't fully understand.

Judy Tsuei 1:20

You'll also hear this beautiful story about how she met her parents halfway in understanding that sometimes the way that they approach us as their children isn't out of spite or lack of desire to understand where we're coming from, it's genuinely their lived experience has been so different from ours. And for us to expand our awareness and understanding of their experience, and to have more compassion for that can be so profound, and healing and connective.

Judy Tsuei 1:48

In a future interview that I will have with a multicultural Hero's Journey coach, she explains a bit about how she healed her relationship with her mother in learning how to better understand the context in which her parents were approaching her. And so I hope that today's interview in the future interviews that you hear from the guests that I bring on, offer a different lens for you to live your life. enjoy today's conversation.

Judy Tsuei 2:21

Welcome to the F*ck Saving Face podcast. I'm your host, Judy Tsuei, and together we'll explore mental and emotional health for Asian Americans, especially breaking through any taboo topics. Life may not always be pretty, but it is indeed beautiful. Let's make your story beautiful today.

Judy Tsuei 2:38

Welcome to the fuck saving face podcast where we talk about all things taboo when it comes to being Asian American. So we can break through those topics and really help redefine what it means to be Asian in America today. So I'm really excited because I have chief him here today. And she is a plant based athlete. So if you go to her Instagram, you'll see that, you know, she speaks about diversity in sports. She's Vietnamese and you know, talks about racing. And we'll dive into some of the preconceived feedback that our Asian parents tend to give when we pursue things that they don't think like a girl should do, quote unquote. And also, if I sound a little funny, it's because I have a cold, but it's all good. And I'm going to turn it over to cheat. Are you still in Hawaii right now? Oh, by the way?

Chi Pham 3:19

I am. I am Aloha. I love it.

Judy Tsuei 3:23

So anytime that I speak with anybody in Hawaii, I'm like, Oh, please share that Hawaiian aloha spirit with me. I miss living there, for sure. But I wanted to turn it over to you. Because you know, one of the things also that you featured recently, you work at Google, you're UX designer. And when it comes to this idea of diversity and equity, that's one of the things that you know, I've only become new to understanding this idea that there isn't equity when it comes to healthcare and representation and clinical studies and things like that. So I'd love for you to talk a bit about you know, your experience working at Google and then as a triathlete, so I'm just gonna turn it over you to organically Introduce yourself.

Chi Pham 4:03

Great. Hello, Hello, everyone. My name is Chi. Yeah, as I mentioned, I currently work on a google.org fellowship, which is basically Google works with nonprofits or government or any foundations that are trying to do something in tech for the greater good. And they kind of get together this whole cohort of Googlers across, you know, different functions. So they have engineers and marketing folks and designers and I joined the team as a user experience designer.

Chi Pham 4:32

And our goal was to build a data dashboard for the Morehouse School of Medicine in order to show all of the health disparities that communities of color face throughout the US, I think, you know, to make policy in order to address a lot of these inequities, policymakers and policy influencers are turning more and more towards data, right. They want to make sure that they're targeting the right communities that their money is Going into the right places, and that they can, you know, justify budgets and spending and all of that stuff with data. But of course, the problem is data is very messy. And data's often incomplete.

Chi Pham 5:11

So even if you do have data, especially for communities of color, that data is not disaggregated. It's often misclassified, it's often not even collected. And so a big part of the dashboard that we really wanted to emphasize was not only surfacing, you know, here's the data we do have, but also calling out here's the data that we don't have, that really hinders our understanding of the entire picture, which is really, I think, like a, just not common in data dashboards.

Chi Pham 5:42

And it was really awesome to work with folks who are so equity focused and making sure like, hey, when you show data for Asians, you're actually lumping together, you know, over 19 different origin groups, and you're just calling it Asia, which is like, it doesn't tell you the picture of like, how Indian Americans are different from, you know, folks from Cambodia, or different from folks from Laos, and Vietnam. And it's like, yeah, just disaggregation is a big thing that is pretty problematic and data, but yeah, long story long. It's called the health equity tracker. Anyone can check it out. It's a health equity. tracker.org. But yeah, it just launched last week. So exciting.

Judy Tsuei 6:27

That's awesome. I love sharing that. Thank you for sharing. Can you talk a little bit about your upbringing? You know, you mentioned that you're Vietnamese. And so I'd love to hear about like, kind of your family's story and how you. Yeah, how you were raised where you were raised all that good stuff?

Chi Pham 6:44

Yeah. That's a great question. Yeah. So we're, I'm Vietnamese. And my family lived in south in the South Vietnam, in Saigon. And so my grandfather actually fought in the Vietnam War in the South Vietnamese Army, which is the side that the United States of America like supported, but after the war ended, that was the side that lost, so it became, like, pretty dangerous, pretty difficult to live. And that's also, you know, what kind of spurred the mass exodus in the 80s and 90s. Lots of Vietnamese people trying to leave the country because it Yeah, it was just so broken after the war. And people were essentially just desperate to start a new life.

Chi Pham 7:26

And so, you know, my parents tried to leave it now and be about a couple of times. They were never successful that though, because, you know, there's pirates, there's police, it was extremely dangerous journey. I know, lots of other Vietnamese families have tried, and my dad actually lost a brother on one of these boat trips. And so yeah, there's just a lot of history there. And eventually, they kind of settled into like, Alright, we're in Vietnam, we can't leave. And then sometime in the 90s, I think the US opened up an asylum program for lots of Vietnamese refugees.

Chi Pham 8:01

And they after the war ended, they realized they're like, oh, man, the country is in pretty bad shape. We'll grant a bunch of asylum to a bunch of refugees in the 80s and 90s. And so I think that was another way of a folks leaving the country and coming over to the US through, like, legal sponsorship. And so that's how my, my family ended up in America, we ended up in San Diego, which actually has a pretty big kind of entrenched in that community, you know, the city that just really stuck together. And yeah, so I grew up speaking Vietnamese.

Chi Pham 8:32

My grandparents raised me because my parents were, you know, working multiple jobs, trying to learn English at the same time, and just trying to take care of my brother and my brother went to preschool pretty much as soon as he could, because, you know, they were just trying to, like, keep my brother and I as busy as possible, while they had to work really long hours. And yeah, I mean, which I think is like, you know, I think one of the resounding lessons that my parents stressed to me over and over again, growing up was, you know, you can't really count on a lot in life sometimes, but the thing you can count on is family and, you know, family is the most important thing that will always have your back essentially, though, that that is like if I get some of my childhood, it was not plentiful or bountiful, in terms of, you know, physical possessions or, you know, extracurricular activities or anything like that, but I never I for sure felt loved above anything else.

Chi Pham 9:31

And I had a that's like a very strong testament. You know, immigrant parents who immigrant and refugee parents who just basically sacrifice everything that they know in their lives for just like a shot for their children to succeed, which is incredibly humbling, and I think, of course, incredibly scary sometimes as a child of that, you know, Sure, sometimes I feel like it's almost too much pressure, right? It's like, Oh my gosh, how will I ever repay that kind of debt? Yeah, that's definitely something I still struggle with. And something that as I'm growing and learning, it's it's not about ever repaying that debt because like, I don't think I ever will be able to, you know, more about just understanding. Yeah, just like understanding my parents and why they do the crazy things that they do. out of love and my son as much time Yeah.

Judy Tsuei 10:35

Yeah, it's wonderful, because I feel like the story that you're sharing is like, usually, it kind of goes one of two ways. It's if you come from immigrant parents, because of what they experienced, they experienced so much trauma, they then you know, pass that trauma down. And it can be a very fractured broken family, or you come from trauma, and then you just become super tight knit very, very close together. And I think that that's what your story represents. And also just this kind of, quote, unquote, burden or understanding of what your parents gave up, I went, I live abroad in Taiwan, and in China, and so like, I thought about it, you know, what it would be like, if I tried to start a whole life here, not having the primary language, you know, all of these kinds of things, it would have been very, very difficult.

Judy Tsuei 11:20

And then, you know, just being a parent in and of itself is extremely challenging. So to move the whole, like, family somewhere else, I think it's remarkable that you had that experience. And yeah, thank you for sharing. And I love just this idea of, you know, because I think a lot of us Well, for me, I was raised, kind of comparing myself to all of my white counterpart, friends and kids and seeing how much we had. And then, you know, on the surface, sometimes we had some sometimes we didn't, usually more often than not, we didn't. And so it was easy to compare. But then having that reframe of, you know, there are different core values or different ways that we can have abundance and wealth. And I think having that love and that support is such a wonderful thing that you walked away with.

Judy Tsuei 12:01

So I'm curious too, because, you know, you came from this traditional upbringing. And then you moved into two interesting things, you moved into becoming a triathlete and then becoming plant based. So both of those things are very different. i, you and i, when we before we got on this recording had mentioned, you know what I just out of curiosity, because I always thought it was so graceful and beautiful. I wanted to learn how to do the butterfly. So I was taking like a 5am swim class at Santa Monica College when I had already like I was in my like, mid to late 20s. And it was a 5am class, but I tan really easily. So I'm like slathering sunblock on. And everybody else is like, what are you doing? The sun's not out. I'm like, You don't understand. Like it dark, five second. And of course, inevitably, I would go over to my parents. And they were like, Why are you so wired? Like, just, you know, so frustrated about it. So there was that.

Judy Tsuei 12:56

And I remember trying to you know, I went to Berkeley I met a bunch of hippies like not to say that, you know, only hippies are vegetarian or vegan. But it was the first time I was really exposed to it on a wider scale. And like restaurants that cater to like vegan menus, and I was like, I'm gonna give it a shot. And then I went home, and I was like, I'm not eating meat. And my parents almost laughed in my face. They would like literally serve me bowls of food with meat, and regardless of whatever my preference was. So I'm curious about your around that.

Chi Pham 13:23

I'm just chuckling because I just did not. Yeah, that's funny. I will say on the plant based thing. I've been plant based, like, on and off the last Yeah, I don't know, maybe like five years. I don't take like a very strict approach to it. Partly because of my mother. And in a sense that, you know, I remember the first time I ever told her that I was vegetarian and she was like, Ah, okay, yeah, she just like, it just didn't process and then that later that night, she served like tofu for dinner. And then there was little, there's ground beef in it. And I was like, Mom, like, we just had this conversation, like, two hours ago. Like, yeah, and she's like, Yeah, but the beef is so small. It doesn't matter. Yeah.

Chi Pham 14:12

In her head, she was like, Yeah, but it's just like little flecks of ground beef. It's cool. It's just like, eat it. You won't you won't even notice it. But yeah, it's just interesting. I just feel like Yeah, she grew up in Vietnam, and she grew up so poor, that meat was such a luxury item. So part of me thinks that like, now we have the means to be able to afford me. So like, why wouldn't we eat it? And part of it is also like, you know, the old school conception is like you need needs to be strong. You need to be strong if you want to compete it, you know, meat builds muscle, and that's the only way you're gonna ever build muscle.

Chi Pham 14:49

So I think Yeah, my parents continue to be concerned about whether or not I'm meeting needs. Yeah, including my race this I have a race coming up this Saturday. My parents are like, are you even going to be able to finish this video if you haven't eaten any meat? months? But yeah, long story long, my parents don't get it. And that's okay. I think we're now at a point over like, okay, like, agree to disagree. And if my mom ever cooked anything at home, and I'm home, and it has me, I'll usually eat it just because it's like my mom's cooking and there, it's just like, not worth the effort of like arguing about it.

Judy Tsuei 15:35

Yeah, I totally understand why I mean, even just as a general, like false perception, I think I remember when I was teaching yoga a lot, I actually went to Brazil, and I was both covering the story and then just happened because of my yoga background and kind of like training some of the athletes there and doing some yoga classes and whatnot. And they were doing a triathlon. And so these elite athletes, one of them asked me like, Wait, you're a yoga teacher, and you eat meat? How does that work? I thought, like, your whole yoga belief was that like, you know, non harm and like, all this kind of stuff. And you know, I mean, like, ethically, I always felt like I agree with you.

Judy Tsuei 16:09

And then physically, maybe because I wasn't doing it, you know, with all the right science behind it, or whatnot. My body just didn't respond to it as well. And you know, the more that I dive into, like biohacking and those kinds of things, like it's helpful to understand every body is different, and your needs are going to be different. But even as you're this, you know, endurance athlete, I'm sure, not just from the Asian American population, or the Asian population, but just other people are also curious, how do you make it work? How do you, you know, do the plant based diet as you're doing these endurance sports?

Chi Pham 16:39

Right? Yeah, I definitely feel like everybody is different. And it takes so much time to figure out, like, what does your body actually need. And I think after college, I did have this unfortunate phase where I tried a lot of diets. And I say unfortunate, because a lot of the diets were motivated from a place of, you know, self hate, like I wanted a certain body type. And so I would try these different diets. But the good thing that came out of that phase was I did end up trying a lot of different diets. And I could tell pretty easily like which diets I would not be able to sustain or which dieted on or which diets, I was just, like, constantly hungry.

Chi Pham 17:23

And so I feel like that period of trial and error has, yeah, led me to like where I am today, where I just eat, when I'm hungry, I try to have like a good balance of, you know, carbs and vegetables and protein, I make sure to have protein at every meal. And I try to make sure that each protein that I have is, you know, like different, like I'm not just slamming tofu every day. You know, I'm really trying to like mix up and have variety in your diet. And if I'm still hungry after a meal, I'll just eat more and I do try to make sure that the foods that I'm eating our as a whole are like as least process as possible. So like, instead of like the big sausages all I'll try to have more lentils or beans or Yeah, just like Whole Foods.

Chi Pham 18:12

But of course, there's always the factor of convenience and laziness sometimes that I'm just like, Okay, I'm just gonna eat some in some of these sausages. Yeah. And just like trying to pay attention to how I feel week to week, if I am feeling tired or sluggish. I'll you know, I'll try to eat a little bit more protein or something. But generally speaking, it's not like I, I don't I don't measure or track any anymore. I used to because like, when you're first starting out, you don't like who knows how many 100 grams of carbs is, you know, but I kind of found that that led to a lot of like, disordered eating tendencies and behavior. So I kind of had to step away from that.

Judy Tsuei 18:57

What made you decide to become plant based in the first place?

Chi Pham 19:01

Yeah, that's a good question. Well, the first time I was ever like vegetarian for a solid period was after I graduated college, I lived in DC and I worked at a nonprofit and I it was just, I just became vegetarian because it was cheaper. Buying beans and rice is cheaper than buying, you know, chicken and other things. So at first it was just out of necessity because my nonprofit salary was like so small.

Chi Pham 19:29

But then I started doing a little bit more research about kind of the environmental impact of eating a plant base and just like the wild water usage that you know, meat requires and how resource intensive it is. It's just, it's just bonkers to me. So that was like one aspect. Another aspect is just learning more about the animal industry and yeah, the lives of those animals and chickens and just like crazy how divorced We are from like the actual process that totally whoo takes to come from like, you know, the land to our play. It's like, yeah.

Chi Pham 20:07

It's so yeah, we're so divorced from it. So, yeah, so I guess, budget reasons, environmental reasons, you know, animal practices. And then only recently was that kind of more motivated about fitness because I also thought, like, oh, maybe like, I don't know, I could do yoga while being plant based, but I'm not sure if I can, you know, body build or do endurance app, like endurance sports with it. But, you know, I just started doing a little bit more research and, you know, all those documentaries that they tell you to watch, I watched them. Which was like the motivating piece I think I yeah, so I just wait for this game changers was the last one that I watched. And then there's a couple ones about like, what the cow I think and a couple. Yeah, I don't remember them off the top of the head.

Judy Tsuei 20:59

Yeah, there's a book that I remember reading called, like Forks Over Knives, and which was Yeah, okay. That was a Yeah, I love that. Yeah, I loved his other books. That's how I got into that one. But yeah.

Chi Pham 21:11

Oh, cool. Yeah, right. Now, this current iteration is just like me, I guess I view being plant based as a means for me to also be a little bit more connected with my food and how my food impacts how I feel. Surprisingly, I feel like growing up as an athlete, you would think that you would learn all these skills, but I actually think growing up and being a competitive swimmer, you learn to ignore all your body cues, like you ignore being sore, you ignore being tired.

Chi Pham 21:47

You push your body past its comfort level, like every day. And then you're so hungry afterwards, you just like shovel as much food as you possibly can as quickly as you can. You know, and I don't know, like, I just didn't really learn anything about nutrition. Yeah, you would think that athletes would be super in tune with their body and they are in some respects, but I do feel like the the mind body connection. And at least like being in tune with how food impacts your body and performance were definitely things that I didn't learn growing up as an athlete. And so part of my diet or my you know, how I eat now is just like trying to reestablish that relationship.

Judy Tsuei 22:26

I love that you're saying that, because I think that growing up for a lot of us, whatever culture you came from, your mind body connection is not something that's really honored or understood or encouraged for you to learn about, know how to, like, read yourself. And so especially like from an Asian culture, if you're taught to be different to elder's or to like, really push your needs aside, I think that that is to move even further back so that you just completely divorce yourself.

Judy Tsuei 22:50

So I like that you're, you know, relearning and that it's never too late to start establishing new patterns and new awarenesses and new ways of being healthy. And that's going to forever change throughout our lives. Like as our bodies change, we're going to need different things. And I also think that, you know, it is a luxury to some extent, to be able to think about what you're consuming, like if you have limited options, because that's like one thing.

Judy Tsuei 23:16

But I think as we grow in our resources in our financial states, like whatever it is, I think it's also partly us being responsible as humans and members of the community to also broaden the awareness around the impact of our spending or the impact of, you know, the foods that we take in, I'm only now learning because of the community that I'm around these ideas of regenerative farming, you know, and really like thinking about purchasing if you are going to buy me buy it from a farmer who's like, not only ethically treating the animals, but doing it in a way where it's fostering and nurturing like the land.

Judy Tsuei 23:49

And so, again, I know full well that these are kind of like luxury states to get to have like to have the time and space in your own life to have the capacity to do that. And then to be able to purchase these things, which unfortunately, usually when you buy organic or anything else like that, it's more expensive. So right, I think that you do what you can with the means that you have. And then it's our responsibility as like, you know, global citizens to just become more aware, I think that right, and just learning is really helpful. And again, like you said, you know, if your mom serves you food, you're gonna eat it.

Judy Tsuei 24:20

Like we're not trying to be perfect, but like, again, you were a competitive surfer growing up as a swimmer growing up, like, can you tell me about what that was like? Because I think in my family of origin, we were not taught to pursue sports like that didn't even register on my radar until I was in elementary school. And then we were like playing kickball. And then one time someone was like, do you want to be the pitcher? I'm like, what's a pitcher? And I started pitching and I was so good at it and I loved it. It became my favorite thing.

Judy Tsuei 24:52

So then I was always a pitcher for like softball, kickball, whatever, or like, I'd be the girl playing with the boys playing basketball at lunch. You know, like But none of those things were encouraged. Also, there's like a running joke in my family that my mother is so like, athletically challenged, that, like, she tried so hard to pass like a test. She's like a straight A student in Taiwan, but like, could not pass the PT test, like tried with all her might, and was just not coordinated in that way. So then, because of that story was told a lot. I think I just envisioned that maybe we weren't like that. But it felt so good to be strong. It felt so good to be one of the girls doing like the boy sports the baby like nobody knew about and yeah, so I'd love to hear your experience with that.

Chi Pham 25:30

Before I lose this train of thought on like our previous startup conversation about like the mind body connection, and I think you had mentioned at one point, like asking yourself, like, what do I need? And I feel like, that's an interesting question that I am really bad at asking myself, I'm sure a lot, you know, we're not really, especially as women, especially as Asian woman, we're not really taught to ask ourselves what we need, I feel like I've just been groomed from a young age to project outwards, and like, survey the room to like, make sure that everyone else is okay, you know, what does everyone else need?

Chi Pham 26:05

And, you know, how can I help them blah, blah, blah. I feel like this just came to light yesterday, cuz my parents are here visiting in Hawaii, and I am asking them, you know, what, what do you guys want to do? And they just can't answer me. And I was getting frustrated. Because what do you mean, you don't know what you want to? And it just struck me that like, you know, this is not a question that they've had a luxury to ask themselves, you know, growing up, I feel like, yeah, just having, I guess, a little more empathy for my parents, that they haven't really been able to ask themselves what they want, or what they truly need for a lot of their lives. And so me just like springboard them, like screen question on them? And the answer right away is, I feel like a big, that's like one of the huge difference between, you know, my generation and my parents generation, for sure.

Judy Tsuei 26:58

Yeah, it's also come up in my own life recently, too. I mean, it just in relationship and like in relationship trying to figure out like, Oh, my gosh, I am not clear about how to, like, know what it is that I need? And then second step, express what it is that what I need, in a way that somebody else can hear me to try to meet that need. So like, that is, it's been a big learning, because, you know, now I am going to have this conversation where I imagine that on the other end, it's going to feel like all of a sudden, like you said, You're springing all this stuff on them. And they're like, whoa, whoa, where'd this come from?

Judy Tsuei 27:31

And meanwhile, in the back of my mind, it's like, just, you know, kind of pre wired programming of like, Oh, it's like quiet murmur, quiet murmur until like, boom, like, Oh, my gosh, what I've been trying to say, why haven't Why has this been such a struggle? So I think that, you know, the fostering the mind body connection, or any sort of self awareness practice, that's huge in and of itself. And then the second step is also practicing and flexing that muscle of how to ask for it. Once you're clear on what it is that your need is, I think that that's a whole other hurdle to start to learn how to, like, you know, leap over. And then you know, just practicing that New Groove is a very interesting Feat.

Chi Pham 28:11

Yeah, okay. I think I shared this with you previously. But I feel like my parents brought me how to, they took me to the pool when we were growing up, because it was, you know, a free community pool. And there was like, free lessons for the kids of the neighborhood. And so it was just like an activity for us, my brother and I to do I don't think they really expected us to, like love it so much that we would want to it as like a sport. And yeah, I definitely remember at some point in middle school, I really wanted to be a figure skater, because I think the Olympics had just happened. And Michelle Kwan had won the Olympics. And I was like, Holy moly, this Asian woman is an athlete. I don't see them anywhere else, except for figure skating.

Chi Pham 28:59

So I guess if I want to make it to the Olympics, this is the way I have to go. I've got to be a figure skater. And at this point, I'm like, 12, or something. It's like, way too late for me to start figure skating career, but I just distinctly remember being like, I want to go to the Olympics. I have to be a vaguer skater, I guess. Which I think is just, you know, speaks to the importance of representation and yeah, sports and media and all of that. But anyways, I had a very brief figure skating career. It didn't pan out.

Chi Pham 29:29

But I went back to swimming because I just loved it so much, but I definitely, you know, growing up in San Diego, all the pools are outdoors. So of course, I became very, very tan very, very, it was like a deep, you know, and every single time I saw my grandma, she would be like, she would just, she would give me that look. And she'd be like, why is your skin so dark? Like and then she would say things like, you know, that's not beautiful.

Chi Pham 30:00

You know, like all things that what's confusing because you know, it's so crazy as I feel growing up, you have your grandparents and your parents being like, Alright, you're not beautiful you're not, you know, your skin is getting horrible and dry and tan. But then you have like the American beauty standards where they're like, yes, tan is awesome. Tan and tone and athletic, but not too athletic. So both sides don't want you to be too buff. In the 90s it was very interesting trying to navigate, like just doing something that I loved, but having it really impact my physical appearance and then having to navigate like two sets of beauty standards constantly. And it's just, yeah, I good thing. I love swimming so much.

Judy Tsuei 30:49

Yeah, I think that that's really challenging because yeah, I distinctly have those experiences to being super tan, and then having all of my, you know, white friends, my American friends, get your tan from how do you get so tan? I'm like, What are you talking about? Do you not just like, all of my, like, you know, Asian friends like being told, like, Oh my gosh, like how pale Her skin is, that's so beautiful. And so I think that it's just such a lesson in like, I remember when those dove beauty campaign like started and just even just starting to embrace people of different sizes and colors, and all of that, you know, I'm in marketing.

Judy Tsuei 31:23

So I know, like when there's like a marketing gimmick and all that kind of stuff. And so even with that lens, I still was appreciating that, like you said, like representation, I think that that's so essential to just be able to see yourself in and understand, like, you don't know how many times I tried to bleach my hair blonde, to try to fit into what I believe was the aesthetic of beauty only to have my hair turn orange. And to be like, no, it's never gonna happen, like, never gonna have that. And even, you know, like, among my Western Caucasian friends, like the one with curly hair wants a straight hair, straight hair wants acrylic, so it's like just a perpetual number.

Judy Tsuei 31:56

And it's all lesson in like, learning how to feel beautiful within and feel healthy. And I try to remind my daughter, because sometimes I see her, you know, like really looking at herself in the mirror and like, kind of like posing and stuff like that. And you know, how much of it is like healthy self development, how much of it like, I don't know, because what I do is, because I want her to celebrate, you know, who she is and how she looks and all that I don't want her to feel like you You alluded to this, which was another thought that I wanted to follow up on is that it's hard to embrace, feeling beautiful, when all of your life, you're told that you're not, for whatever reason, you know, like for your skin, not in the right tone, or whatever.

Judy Tsuei 32:33

And then when you are trying to embrace feeling confident or beautiful and like liking, you know, your physique changing, because you're doing a sport that you love, it can be hard, because then that scene is not humble, and boastful or whatever. So you're like, it's just an interesting journey. So I try to tell my daughter, like, you know, I encourage her to celebrate, like, how she feels and how she looks. And then I also remind her, like, you know, where does your like inner beauty, like your inner confidence come from? Where does your true like self come from, and that all comes from the inside. So let's remember to nurture that as much as anything else to try to not make things wrong. But then to you know, from an early age, kind of nurture a different hopefully, standard, obviously, I'm not gonna like take down the beauty industry, but it is what it is. So how did you start? Like, kind of like reconcile all of that, like, Where are you now with that?

Chi Pham 33:25

Yeah, I will say my parents whilst there, I'm sure my mom was like, you know, seeing me become this, like tan super shoulder heavy, like, young woman was like, oh, man, like she would stick out a sore thumb in Vietnam, which I definitely do. She was definitely always very supportive of, you know, like, the fact that this is what you know, I guess she was always supportive of swimming in terms of like, how it made me feel good in terms of, you know, the accomplishment that I felt when I had a good set, or, you know, the new meet that I was going to when I got faster, and I could qualify, she was always super supportive and super proud of, you know, whenever I would accomplish something or meet my goals or work harder towards it.

Chi Pham 34:13

So, I do think she helped me like not she she definitely held back, I think in terms of, you know, sharing too much of, you know, oh man, look at all these beauty standards that you're needing, which I think carries into, you know, how I remind myself to stay grounded and like, how am I feeling like, do I feel stronger? Am I getting stronger? Am I you know, getting mentally or emotionally or physically stronger in my training and not getting too worried about, you know, do I have six pack abs?

Chi Pham 34:45

Am I losing weight? because, you know, a lot of endurance athletes try to lose weight because, you know, they think that if you weigh less and you have to carry less weight and then you can go faster and farther. Just like really trying to remind myself that like endurance athletics. Um, looks different on every person. And what matters is, you know, how is my training doing? Am I recovering? Well? Do Am I injured? Can I sustain this pace? Am I seeing any improvements week over week and just really trying to focus on you know, strength is about how I feel, not how I look. And, you know, confidence is always how you feel, and not how you look on the outside, at least for me, in terms of Yeah, athleticism, but

Judy Tsuei 35:28

And how do you find Yeah, it's definitely. Oh, how do I find diversity in sports? Yeah, like, how do you like, because you were talking about that, you know, you want to help represent diversity in sports? Like, how is the sports industry now? Like, how do you see it and Where could it be improved?

Chi Pham 35:48

Yeah, I definitely. I feel like, yeah, it's just super white still. Yeah, I mean, all the sports that I've done since when I saw you know, in college is all about sewing. And then after that, you know, running, climbing, cycling, swimming, and like all of triathlon, and as a general, everything skews very wide. And I think that's one of the reasons why I hold on to my Instagram account is then I hope it showcases an athlete that doesn't look like the norm. You know, I hope that people can see that, you know, an endurance athlete isn't the tall, skinny white man, but it can be, you know, a shorter, more muscular Asian woman.

Chi Pham 36:38

And I try to work with, like outdoor companies and brands that are willing to have a more diverse, you know, cast or diverse models and, you know, who support athletes that don't look like the norm. And so, I definitely think the trend in terms of marketing is changing. triathlon is an extremely inaccessible and expensive sport, as I'm finding out. And they do try to increase the number of women who participate, but it's definitely like, I mean, yeah, I think that's one of the things that I'm struggling with now is like, I really liked doing triathlons. But it's just you have to you have to get gear for three different sports.

Chi Pham 37:30

And like maintain that it's just really inaccessible for a lot of people and like even the entry fee like I found out the other day, that if you qualify for the National you know, the world champ not not national international World Championships for the full Ironman it that's based in Hawaii, you have to pay $1,000 for the entry. Oh, even if you know, yeah, it's like, You work so hard, you've qualified, you have a slot, and then you have to pay $1,000 on that day to getting to reserve your spot. If you don't make that payment, then they give it to the next person, which is wildly inaccessible. Like how many people can just be like, Damn, yes, 1000 bucks. Right? Now put it on a credit card? I don't know. So that's something I'm struggling with something that I'm, I'm kind of feeling called to try to help. I don't know how so if anyone who's listening knows programs to help get people into triathlon, or running or cycling or swimming or anything like that, please let me know. Because I would love to be involved.

Judy Tsuei 38:32

Yeah, that's awesome. I mean, like that those costs don't take into consideration like the travel costs, you know, the training costs, all of those kinds of things. So yeah, I think that what you're saying creating more equity, and that is amazing, too. So they're always that we can be involved. But yeah, anybody who's listening who has resources, let's like, get rally together. As we're wrapping up this interview, I'm curious along the ideas of flex saving face or really breaking through taboos and just trying to like reframe, maybe something that we've thought about for a long time in one way or just something that we wish people would know, what's one idea that you would like to share?

Chi Pham 39:14

I would like to break the idea that an Asian woman is this, you know, meek, subservient, you know, person who is always in the background, like meeting other places, other people's needs, I want, I want people to know that we are strong and we are powerful, and we are kind and compassionate, and we care about other people. But once we you know, start to channel some of that energy into, you know, meeting our own needs and, you know, figuring out how to empower ourselves I think Asian women are unstoppable, whether that's in sports, whether that's being you know, the next CEO of a company or you know, building products You know, launching podcasts like we are unstoppable. And we're not, you know, just not I love books who are going to ace a map? Yeah. And, you know, the Harvard Medical School and then you know, quit and like, you know, become homeless. I mean, there's definitely sample to do that. Well, you know, sorry. Yeah. I don't mean to shame those.

Judy Tsuei 40:26

Oh, no, not at all. I mean, to each their own. But I definitely think it's valuable to break the idea that, you know, Asian women are meek, or that they're just sex symbols or any sort of fetishization around that, but that, just like everybody else, we are human. And we have needs, and we struggle, and we overcome, and we triumph. And so I love what it is that you're saying. And it was putting such a big smile on my face, because I could feel the energy behind what it was that you were saying. So like, That's amazing. So if anybody wants to follow up with you, where can they follow up with you?

Chi Pham 40:58

They can follow me on Instagram at fam. Usually, you know, you can find my dams if you want. No, I'm just kidding. Yeah, I guess Instagram is the main way to stay in touch, or Yeah, that's it.

Judy Tsuei 41:11

Awesome. Well, I'm really excited. Definitely check out her Instagram, I love the, you know, images that you post, you're in beautiful places doing like very, like, you know, just inspiring physical things, which, again, if you were raised with like, in the environment that I was where you didn't realize like sports could be a thing they could really enjoy. It's so fun. It's so strong until right now. Absolutely. Thank you so much.

Chi Pham 41:37

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Judy Tsuei 41:40

That's it for today. Again, Season One is almost done. I already have incredible interviews scheduled for season two, I'm just going to take a bit of time in the month of August and September to revamp, rejuvenate and come back a new, if there are things that you've loved, please go share them on iTunes or any of the podcast platforms that you're listening on.

Judy Tsuei 42:01

If there are topics that you'd like me to cover, then please feel free to reach out to me Hello, efflux saving face that's fuck without the you. And I would love to hear from you. Anytime you share. It's so meaningful. To me, it reminds me of why I'm doing this. And as always, word of mouth is so wonderful. So if you want to share this with anybody in your life, please hit that share button on whatever you're listening to. I recently took my daughter to a live musical performance here in San Diego, it was wonderful as an outdoor theater, there was all this grass the kids can run around. And at the end of it, one of the musical directors had encouraged us to share by word of mouth about their performance and about the play the moonlight stage opening up again. And my daughter really hooked on to that word and loved it so much that for the next 10 minutes as we're gathering things and getting ready to go with my friends and their kids. She kept saying word of mouth, word of mouth, and it was like the best thing that she had ever heard. So now every time I say word of mouth, that's what I think of.

Judy Tsuei 43:02

Have a beautiful rest of your day wherever you are in the world. And I look forward to you joining me in our mindfulness practice on Friday.

Judy Tsuei 43:12

Thank you so much for listening to today's episode. If you liked what you heard and know someone in your life who might also benefit from hearing this episode, please feel free to share it with them. Also, if you'd like to support our show, you can make a one-time donation fcksavingface.com. Or, you can make a recurring donation at patreon.com/fcksavingface. That's “fck” without the “u.” Subscribe today to stay tuned for all future episodes.