Episode 135: When Enough is Enough: Navigating Perfectionism as a Leader and Mom with Jocelyn Auyeung
In this episode of F*ck Saving Face, host Judy Tsuei engages in a heartfelt conversation with Jocelyn Auyeung, an educator and advocate for mental health and well-being in schools. They discuss the importance of empowering voices, revitalizing education, and the challenges faced by working mothers.
Jocelyn shares her journey of embracing curiosity and change in her parenting style, emphasizing the need to redefine failure and success for the next generation. The conversation also touches on the grieving process associated with growth and the essential life skills needed for resilience and empathy in today's world. Ultimately, they explore the journey of self-discovery and the importance of allowing oneself to feel and express emotions.
More about Jocelyn Auyeung:
Jocelyn Auyeung specializes in coaching moms who are focused on their careers. She helps them seamlessly blend their work and personal lives by changing their mindset about time management, teaching stress management skills, and helping them to establish habits that align with their values.
Jocelyn is also an Associate Certified Coach with the International Coaching Federation. She offers individual coaching services that include life, mental health, and career coaching. Jocelyn hosts the Empowered Working Mom Revolution podcast.
As a wife and a working mom with two pre-teen daughters and a 3-year-old pug, Jocelyn understands the challenges that working moms face. She used to feel overwhelmed and stressed out, always wishing for more hours in the day, and often found myself scrolling through Instagram to escape. She’s discovered that by learning stress management skills, living a values-based life that supports your habits, and shifting your mindset around time management, you can release yourself from the vortex of stress and overwhelm.
Sound Bites
"Life may not always be pretty, but it is beautiful."
"I really like to do work that creates impact."
"Failure is just giving you information."
"It's okay if you didn't get the A that you wanted."
"Curiosity opens up creativity and builds resiliency."
"Allow yourself to grieve and celebrate."
"It's really getting comfortable with the discomfort."
"F*ck saving face living someone else's life."
Takeaways
Empowerment comes from embracing our stories and identities.
Creating sustainable cultures of care in education is essential.
Curiosity is a driving force for personal and professional growth.
Redefining failure as a learning opportunity is crucial for children.
Emotional expression is a powerful tool for healing and understanding.
Life skills, such as resilience and empathy, are foundational for future generations.
Navigating the complexities of parenting requires openness and vulnerability.
The grieving process is a natural part of growth and change.
Celebrating small victories is important in the journey of self-discovery.
Living authentically means rejecting societal expectations and pressures.
Episode Highlights
00:00 Empowering Voices: The Mission of the Podcast
03:17 Revitalizing Education: Jocelyn's Journey
07:00 Curiosity and Change: Parenting in a New Era
13:01 Navigating Failure: Redefining Success for the Next Generation
20:36 Embracing Emotions: The Grieving Process of Growth
28:29 Life Skills for the Future: Nurturing Resilience and Empathy
39:19 Living into Answers: The Journey of Self-Discovery
Transcript:
Judy Tsuei (00:02.668)
Welcome to the F*ck Saving Face podcast where we're empowering mental and emotional health for Asian Americans and voices of color by breaking through taboo topics. Life may not always be pretty, but it is indeed beautiful. Make your story beautiful today.
Judy Tsuei (00:02.711)
Jocelyn and I immediately hit it off because she is all about empowering working moms. In fact, the name of her podcast is Empowered Working Mom Revolution.
I was on her podcast and now she's on mine. And as someone who has been in education and has done a lot of inner work as well, I'm excited for what she's bringing to students and to parents and to educators to really help revitalize and revamp education the way it needs to happen now for our modern society, for our current cultural climate.
for all of the things. So Jocelyn has spent over 15 years in education. She saw firsthand how burnout and stress were affecting amazing teachers. And so she founded an organization called Nurture ED Solutions to help schools build sustainable cultures of care where both educators and students can flourish. So my ex-husband was a teacher.
My current partner is a school administrator. I have constantly been in this arena of education in a lot of different facets. And I've seen also firsthand how much responsibility is placed on the educator to help provide counseling, to help provide almost like therapy sessions, guidance, you know, all of these things and what I truly appreciate.
are people who are figuring out better ways to create a more sustainable educational system because we used to live in communities that shared all of these responsibilities and now we're so siloed in so many ways. So I see the moms around me who are doing all of the things. I mean, I hear it all the time from other people who...
Judy Tsuei (02:19.489)
are also in the same boat of being an entrepreneur, of being a working mother, of being a divorced, of just trying to participate in school activities, to be a conscious parent, to also pay the bills, all of the things. So I'm grateful that she is driven to create these incredible school environments where people feel supported, valued, and energized. She's an associate certified coach with ICF.
And she has expertise in multi-tiered systems of support. So you'll learn more about what it is that she does and who she is and how she shows up. And I'm just so grateful that she exists in the world and that there are more and more people like her. So tune into today's episode. And as always, I look forward to hearing your comments. If you want to leave a review, that would be so great because then you'll help other listeners find this content and share this episode with someone in your life. And
know that you are not alone in wanting to be who you want to be, do what you want to do and have what you want to have. Today, I have Jocelyn Au Young here today. And we, it's funny because I asked Jocelyn how to pronounce your last name before we got on to this recording. And I think for a lot of us with surnames with mine has like a bunch of vowels in a row, it's got the TS sound. It's really difficult. when people, you know, I'm talking to
phone operators or whatever, and they're trying to sound out the name. like, just forget it. And so I know you were saying that you're just about to write a LinkedIn post all about this. And I think that that's a good segue to move into this conversation of like, you know, embracing our heritage, but also empowering the next generation to find a path that resonates with them. So I would love to turn it over to you for you to tell us a bit more about your life, your work.
and anything else that you feel inspired to share right now. Yeah, thank you, Judy. And thank you for just this opportunity just to chat. And I'm excited about our conversation. I loved and I appreciated just you asking, like, how do I say my last name, which I took on my husband's last name. original name was Chow. So that was easier. But my former profession, I was a teacher and I had to teach my students how to say my name because I really believe that
Judy Tsuei (04:42.479)
saying a person's name correctly helps someone feel seen and help someone feel like they belong. And so how I say my name is like, ow, as in like, you know, when you get hurt or young as in the opposite of old. And so the most important thing about me is that I am a mom, you know, and I have two preteen girls. So if you're a mom having two preteen girls, I see you. It's a different season of life.
I am a person who loves to embrace change and experiment. Once I discovered my blueprint or my human design, if you're all into that, that was like a piece of me that I felt like I could really allow myself permission to accept and to really like, yes, that's okay. I like to do a lot of different things. And I go from one thing, it seems like every year, it's another thing.
But what has stayed true for me in terms of the work that I like to do is I really like to do work that creates impact, whether that was through teaching as a teacher, but now through mental health and mental well-being and providing those kind of services to my clients. And so it really falls under the umbrella of doing work that's impactful. I really, you know, once you're a teacher, I'm always a teacher at heart.
And so my current work, you're catching me at an interesting time is transitioning into bringing everything that I've learned the last like five years back into education and supporting our educators and their mental well-being. So I'm super excited. I don't know where that goes. This is the part of me who's like a perpetual experimenter and trying new things, but I'm really super excited because I really want to, you know, save education in a way that
for our future generation. Like we need educators. And I grew up in the public education. I have a heart for that. And I have a heart for teachers. And I love mental wellbeing and talking about that. This is not something that my parents envisioned for myself. So this is something definitely new. So I was excited when Judy was like, let's talk about this. like, yeah, I'm excited for that.
Judy Tsuei (07:00.114)
Well, and I love what first of all, I honor educators. It's somehow my sphere has always been around educators. My current partner is an assistant principal and school administrator. And so I've always been around that. And I love teaching too. I love that you said impact as well, because I did that Ikegai exercise to figure out like what that core thing is that we are meant to do. And impact is the word after I like pulled all of the layers away that that was the thing. And I think that when it comes to education, like
there was no possibility of going to private school growing up. Like my immigrant parents did not have the budget for that. And so public school was always where we went, you know, and it was actually like, I love the school lunches because that's not food we ate at home. And so are many things about public education that I think is important. And I used to always say my daughter was born on Kauai, but I had this understanding I need her and I want her to live in a big city so she can experience.
different cultures, different backgrounds, the challenges of living in big spaces, the challenges of going to public school. like, you know, we didn't necessarily have gangs in junior high when I was going to school, but we definitely had cliques that were pretty aggressive at times. And like, how do you handle that kind of stuff? And it's a different era now for sure. But I think everything that you're talking about is what step seven is about. Like for me, it was telling my daughter, I don't care about the grades. Like I care about you.
doing your best effort. And what I care more about is you learning life skills that will serve you in the long run. And I think for you to go back and help educators with that too, only has that trickle down effect. Because I think now I actually know a lot of teachers now too. And I think, my gosh, when I was little, I used to look up to all of my teachers as like, you are the be all and end all like, you know, and now I think about it, was like, you guys are the teachers. Like, what are we talking about here? But I think it's a lot of understanding we have a whole human.
And a lot of work environments now are encouraging more of you being able to show up in all of your facets of self. So I would love to hear, cause you're also a mom and you said you have preteen girls. And I'm so curious because they get to see you, like you were saying, continually have this curiosity, explore all around to see like what makes you come alive, how you can give back. And have you seen how that's created their
Judy Tsuei (09:24.733)
version of reality and like, please tell me a little bit more about that. Yeah, so it's so interesting just watching my girls grow up. It's fascinating because I don't think I intentionally do the things or did the things or made the choices in the last five years, like for the purpose for them to like, I want my kids to be able to see this and mom I really was doing this because I was curious. Like, I think that's the natural
part of me that I didn't, it wasn't supported growing up because it was like, you know, growing up with immigrant parents, you had a certain path, you had certain grades that you had to, and you know, they wanted certain things. And rightfully so, I totally honor that for my parents because they just wanted a certain life for myself. But there was always this natural curiosity just to try things and thankfully have a very supportive spouse.
And for my kids now seeing them, it's like they, I don't know, my 12 year old daughter, she has this same curiosity to just try new things and just understanding her timeline and actually like executing on her curiosity. That's different for me. I'm like a fast, like curious, I'm gonna go for it, right? And then.
She just needs a little bit more time, but she has so much curiosity in her. You know, I'm going to say human design, she's like a manifesting generator. So she's like always like curious about things. And it's interesting just to have conversations because they're at that point where they have these conversations that she's just like, yeah, I'm like curious about like right now we're trying to figure out like an afterschool activity for her. And she's really, I noticed she's really into like K-pop stuff.
but she's really into moving her body. so, you know, was exploring like, is it hip hop? Is it K-pop? Is it, you know, ballet? And yesterday she's like, I think I'm gonna go for ballet. And it totally surprised me. But it's like, I love that she's just like, yeah, you know, I've never really like, I'm not flexible, you know, and sometimes, you know, that like inner critic comes and I hear that and I'm like.
Judy Tsuei (11:37.008)
you've never done it, baby. Like you've never done it before. Like I've never done a podcast, but I'm just going to go try and see how it goes, you know? And having those conversations is so like, it's really cool. I'm just, it's just really cool to see. And then my youngest who is 10 is the same similar thing. And she's like, I'm curious of what it's like to be on competitive gymnastics team. Let me just try and do that. Right. Like, and my husband pointed out, he's like,
you know, they're watching you. They've been watching you. And I was like, I didn't really think, I didn't really intend for that. But it's really cool just because I followed my own curiosity that it led it to that. And, you know, I love what you said earlier, like, you know, just trying your best and, you know, doing what, you know, like doing what follows, know, peaks your interest and things like that's been like my whole motto. I love that how you.
Like this step seven was like, yeah, grades don't matter. know, all that matters is like really like follow your curiosity. If you did your best and you fail, that's okay. Failure gives you information. And I think that's what I've been learning myself as a, you know, middle-aged woman. And then like seeing my kids learn that too and we're learning together. So it's almost like we're growing together.
because I've had to really kind of like decondition myself of the way I grew up and parent and also parent myself in a different way. Yeah. mean, I think that one of the things that I noticed about what you were talking about is you have these conversations with your daughters and we never had conversations like me and my parents. We still don't have conversations really. I mean, like, you know, but being able to have a back and forth.
where I'm hearing you, I'm seeing you and vice versa. And I think that is something new that I think our generation is trying to cultivate and create. And since my daughter was little, I would always say like, you're a whole person. Just cause you're smaller doesn't mean you matter any less. Like you're a whole person. so, I think in my case too, I'm a divorced parent. don't have a...
Judy Tsuei (13:52.32)
connected relationship with her dad, which means that half the time I don't really know what she's doing or like who she's with and like things like that. And so I've had to teach her from a younger age. Like, you know, I'm, I want you to be able to advocate for yourself and I want you to be able to speak up and you can do that to mom and dad. And as long as you're respectful, but like, we're not always going to be right. We're only sharing with you what we think we know based on our lived experience, which is going to be different from what you're living through. And so.
I think those are some of the things that we're doing differently as like middle-aged Asian women, raising our girls, raising our kids is have a conversation with us. Let me see you as a whole person. I'm not threatened by your opinion or your curiosity. And I could imagine for our parents, like being in a different country, not knowing how to navigate so many things. How could you encourage your child to be curious? Like just the basic needs were so difficult at times to secure. so like,
anything on top of that was a whole other level. And I don't know about you, but I'm one of four kids. And so I think for a lot of immigrant parents as well, there's so many children to navigate. And so I love hearing you having that sense of exploration with them and that they get to see that in you. Like, well, that's one of the other things that I don't think, I mean, I respect my parents, I respect their mindset because they were born at a certain time and went through their own challenges, but there's no part of me that's like, that's who I want to be when I grow up. And in fact,
like opposite of like, I'm not going to do that when I grow up. And so for us to model things that our children can say, like, you know what, maybe that is something that I could like utilize in my own life. Like, you know, I take my daughter to my personal training sessions, because I want her to see mom is strong. I want her to see women can do these things. I want her to see progress and like grit and sweat and like all of these things. And like, I never saw my mom like run a lap.
So I'm curious too, you as an educator and as a teacher, I always wish that I could just kind of like have a teacher here, like, how did you learn how to do it? What is the right way? But like, know, kind of we're like saying, there is no failure. And I think for a lot of us, we weren't given that luxury, like, no, failure is not an option. You better get it right. And you better get it right the first time around. So how do you encourage, like if you, if that was not a lived experience of ours, how do we encourage
Judy Tsuei (16:18.778)
failure for someone else? Oh, that's such a great question, Judy, because it's like, you're like, oh my gosh, your lived experience growing up similar mine, like failure was not an option. And I, you know, and that's probably why when I got to go to college, I went as far as because, like, I wanted to, I, you know, the first I'll say that the first time I failed was in high school.
And that was the most like, it like, it has been seared into my mind because it was, I know which class, physics honors senior year. Math analysis, junior year. Physics honors senior year, fall semester. Gotta D, gotta D. It was the most shameful moment as the eldest daughter of the eldest son in my family, because it was science and science and math, right? Like you needed to.
Like, how could you not, right? So like, that was my first experience of failure. And it was the, it's seared into my mind because I knew exactly, right? I wasn't allowed to, like, it just felt very sample. And in that moment, I knew I was like, I do not, if I ever, like, if I ever have my own kids, I do not want them to see failure like this, right? And looking back, I'm so glad that I failed in physics honors because
I'm not into science, right? As you can see my work right now, I'm not into science. So, you know, with my kids, like I've had to go through my own multiple experiences of failure to understand how I navigate through that because how I navigated as a high schooler, my parents told me how to navigate through that. It was like, you got to work harder, right? And so, you know, I...
I really I failed a lot. I almost failed college everyone. I wrote about it on LinkedIn. Like I actually did. And then I had to come back and figure it out. So, you know, parents don't know that. But now it's out. So with my kids, you know, they've had to I talk about it a lot. That's the that's the first thing I talk about it a lot. And I started practicing talking about it with like actually with myself going through therapy of understanding
Judy Tsuei (18:41.584)
failure and how I felt and just working through that shame. And then I felt more comfortable like talking about it, like sharing the stories in my classroom when I was a teacher, because that was really important for my students. I didn't have kids at time, but I wanted to let them know like, it's okay. just is, it's just data. Like failure is just giving you information. That's all it is. And so even before I became a parent, I was like, y'all kids,
second graders, grades don't matter. All I want is like for you to show me that you tried. And if you tried, that's great. Let's celebrate that. And so that's kind of where it started of like, I experienced my own failure and how I was told to navigate it. And that didn't align with me and resonate with me. And so that's really a big reason why I became a teacher. Cause I was like, this next generation, I don't want them to see what fish is like.
And it's the same with my kids now too. It's interesting because, you know, my kids see my parents, they live close by quite often. And so they do get that grandparenting parenting from them. And it's interesting that my daughter, she wrestles with that because she hears it from her grandparents and she hears something different from us as her parents. And so she almost has this inner turmoil of like how she's trying to figure out how to navigate failure.
And so, and we try to like model like, it's okay, like, I didn't get my crochet project right the first time, right? I'm having to undo it, right? And she saw me do that last week. And for her, it's like, it's okay if you didn't get the A that you wanted, did you try your best? You know, and just being like, it's just giving you information, right? And however you define failure, right? Like how I define failure might be different from how you define failure.
Right. But most, most important is how you navigate it for yourself. Right. Because the last thing I want you to experience is that it's a shameful thing, which is totally not true. Right. So it's like trying and I've had, I'm learning, I'm still working through that myself with my kids. I love hearing that. And I don't know if anyone's articulated the way that you have before, but like failure doesn't mean the same thing to everyone. And I think that is a,
Judy Tsuei (21:06.194)
really important nugget to remember that, yeah, people's definition is different. Like I think up until now, up until you just said it, I must have had some very concrete definition of what failure is, but it hadn't occurred to me despite my loving different perspectives and loving different like lenses of storytelling that wait a minute, my definition could be very different from someone else's. And I remember one of my fellow yoga friends, she became a mom much sooner than I did.
and she had noticed from an early age that one of her children had difficulty with failure, like a difficult time with not getting it right. So her and her husband would purposely make mistakes around her. They would put a plate back and like, oops, this isn't where it goes. well. like, you know, like continue to model that for her in a very obvious way. So from an early age, she could see the adults in her life also making mistakes. I thought that was so lovely.
and such a nurturing, simple thing to do to integrate into your daily life. And just recently, one of my long time clients, my marketing clients had said that, you we need to cut our budget. So after November, we're not going to be able to continue with the same pattern and scope that we've done before. And so I mentioned it to this Goldman Sachs program that I'm now a part of and
rather than any sort of taking it personally or we all know we're entrepreneurs, so we are just gonna continue to show up and persevere because there's ups and downs and all arounds. But it was the question of, and what does that data tell you? Like how long did you have this client? How much revenue did you generate from them? How much did it cost to acquire them? And then using that as information to better plan for the future, to better look at it as like, okay, well, I know this is one data point. And so,
Can I use that to figure out in the bigger picture of things, like what else there is? And I think also, I don't think my parents had the languaging to express this, but everything always seemed to be so important. They're like every single minute quiz test, whatever it was, was just so important. And there was no pulling back to say, well, in the big scheme of things, does this actually matter? And like in the big scheme of things.
Judy Tsuei (23:14.964)
How much are we gonna remember this? And will it impact your greater vision of the future? And whether or not you know what that's gonna look like in the future, I think having that question of how much weight am I giving this? And is that the accurate amount of weight that I should be dedicating to this? Because maybe it's not, it's like a fraction of a fraction of a thing that I'm ever gonna think about or care about in my life. And so just being able to have these kinds of conversations.
helps others and hopefully the listeners here in the community that we have just say, I never thought about it like that. I didn't realize, you know, the switch or the solution could be something so small and that it could, you know, over time have like a compounding effect, which might kind of go against what I was saying, but like, yeah. So I've been reading Atomic Habits and his whole thing is like a 1 % increase over time. And so I'm curious too, when I tell my daughter, you know, I want you to have
life skills. I want you to be able to be resourceful, be resilient, learn how to form connections, learn how to manage your money, learn how to stand up for yourself, take good care of your body, all of these things. What would you say for this upcoming generation, since you've actually taught the next generation, what are some of the skills that you've seen are very important to actually nurture? Like what have you seen works best for the students who you've taught or you've seen if we
nurture this seed right now, it will bloom into this is other traits that you've seen. Yeah. Well, it's interesting that you brought up life skills, because as I was listening to you, I was like, this reminds me of what you said earlier at the top of our conversation life skills, because I believe like life skills is just the foundation of everything. And what I've seen is really, you know, curiosity.
Curiosity is really the biggest thing that I've noticed for kids. I don't know if I said it as curiosity in classroom, curiosity or interest. I'm like, what are you interested? Because when we have curiosity, it kind of fires these things up like, ooh, I wonder, the I wonder. That phrase, I love that phrase. I wonder.
Judy Tsuei (25:33.27)
You know, what do you wonder? And it just opens up creativity. And then when there's creativity, there's this sense of like, also like resiliency comes through too, because when you're super curious, you just want to know, you just want to like figure it out. And that builds resiliency. And that builds like just the inner drive, right? And so like, those, I think if I were to name the things that I noticed just being a teacher,
for the last more than a decade, would be curiosity, the resiliency to keep trying, keep trying, but also to know when you've done enough. And that's the most important, that's actually something that I realized as I taught longer is like, I started off when I was young as a teacher, I'd be like, keep trying or try your best. But I realized there are, like you said for,
your friend's kids, like some kids, there's just a natural tendency of perfectionism, right? Both my girls also wrestle with that, right? And so learning to have them be curious of like, when do you know when it's enough for you? I can't tell you when it's enough, but I can tell you what I notice. What do you think, right? And so it's like, how
helping like when working with the students and even my kids like helping them realize, you know what, I've done all I can. It's such an empowering thing to watch a student say, I've done all I can. This is the best that I can do. I've tried. I tried enough. And I was like, okay, cool. I'm not going to ask more of you then because you know, I'm going to trust you, trust you. And that's and then also like, you know, like for kids when an adult says I trust you.
It makes them trust themselves. And that's such, it's such the most beautiful thing to watch. Because then you see them also be that, like, you know, encourager to other kids, right? Like, it's okay, did you try your best? Like, and the other kids were like, yes. And I was like, okay, then like, you know, it's so cute. It's so cute. It's so it's the cutest thing ever. But I, you know, like, that's, you know, that's something and that that
Judy Tsuei (28:00.818)
is like invoking empathy between kids, right? Empathy for each other and compassion. So, you know, if I were to like bottom line it's like curiosity, you know, there's creativity, resilience and empathy and trust, trusting in oneself. I love the when is enough enough. Like that's another thing that I don't think I've articulated of like, when is it enough? And like, do we have to keep pushing and striving and like,
or can we just call it and be like, you know what, that was good enough. I know for me, my tendency has always been like, I'm gonna get close to the finish line, but man, I'm not really gonna cross over. And so I know that about myself. And so sometimes I'll be like, nope, we're gonna like nudge a little bit more. And at other times, it can be very detrimental to like keep trying and keep shoving and keep pushing. Like even now, while I'm doing this personal training, my curiosity was how strong can I get? Like I'm so curious as to how strong I can get.
But now as we increased the weight of like, you know, the weights I'm lifting, as we've increased the amount of days that I'm going, I can see my body is like, maybe that's enough. Like maybe we've reached our max. And in terms of like, this is now going to cause pain as opposed to improvement. And my brain is like, nope, I'm just gonna muscle through it. I'm gonna power through it. When I can tell now like, maybe not.
And maybe the expectation is not where we would like for it to be. Maybe like we have natural ending points. And I think there's this book that other people have recommended to me to read and I started it and I couldn't get through it because some of the trauma that he describes at the beginning was so intense. I was like, no, but it's about that Navy SEAL who just like tried to become a Navy SEAL multiple times and like couldn't do it, but just kept pushing and pushing and finally got there.
And now he's like, you can do more and you can be better and like all this kind of stuff, which is a very like, you know, aggressive masculine, like driven kind of energy. And I'm not saying that is there isn't a place for that, but I don't see us calling it when like, you know, and I think when you call it, if you have a goal that's over here, but you can only get to here and then you're realizing that's kind of my capacity, like my, that's how much I can get to, then there's a grief to be like,
Judy Tsuei (30:24.736)
What do I do about that gap and how do I redirect it or how do I manage that? So if we're encouraging people to like recognize the natural stopping point, what do you suggest for them to do like with that afterwards? If there is that disappointment or if there is like a need to pivot or whatever it is. Yeah, I love how you actually named it. It's a grieving process. It's a grieving process. You know, like the first, you know, image came.
that came to mind as you were talking about that is there are multiple, you know, it's interesting. I saw it in the classroom, but I also see it with my clients, right, who are adults, right? So like in the classroom, kids are so forthcoming with their feelings. They're so naturally vulnerable and authentic. And it displays itself into just a meltdown, right? So when I have, like I remember a little sweet little girl in my second grade class,
And she just, she really had these high expectations for herself on a project. And it didn't come out the way that she wanted to. And as a second grade, she just melted on the floor. And if you looked at the project, it was amazing. I was like, this is amazing. And all her friends were like, it's amazing. But to her, it was like not what she expected. And so,
I love that you said it was a grieving process. And there was no words that I could have said as her teacher or her friends to help her like feel, you know, accept that she just needed that time to grieve. Right. And I said, it's okay. It's okay, honey. Like I understand. Like what is it that you expected? What is it that you wanted and that it didn't come true for this project? You know, and so it's just like,
we just allowed her time to just like talk it through, right? That was for her with, you know, as a second grader. And that, I have to tell you that happened more than once, you know, 20 years of teaching. So, but like, that's, it would be allowing yourself to grieve. It would be allowing yourself to grieve and whatever grieving looks like for you, right? There's no, grieving doesn't mean that you always have to cry your eyes out and bawl your eyes out, right? It's like,
Judy Tsuei (32:45.502)
everyone has a different grieving process, but also it's, you know, how can you allow yourself and give yourself permission to offer yourself grace? Right? And recognition. Like there's some form of celebration to there at some point. And so like, that's the thing that I noticed also in adults, me, myself included, right? Like we have this vision in our mind, right? Like I have a vision board, right? And I'm like, this is where I envision.
And sometimes I have this timeline. I'm like, it's gonna be by the end of this year, right? And it doesn't happen. And so there's grief around that it didn't happen within a certain timeline, but also it's like allowing I self grace to know like, well, a year ago, where was I? And that allows the openness to allow yourself grace of like, I've actually taken steps.
Maybe I didn't get to my quote unquote finish line, but I got to, like you said, I where my capacity was or where life has given me. And maybe, maybe it's not the end. Maybe it's just pivoting to something else or it's opening to something else. And I think that it's like reframing our perception of what end is or, you know, failure that.
failure or getting to it is. And so it's like, how else could we see this experience here? And also, it's very nuanced. Yeah, there's grief. Allow yourself to grieve. And what can you celebrate, too, in the midst of it? So it's like a cocktail of emotions, is how I would say it.
I think the time that you were saying and just even asking the questions, being able to voice what those things are, because in my family of origin, I wasn't allowed to have a reaction or response to anything that happened. So if I got in trouble with my parents and then I got mad about it, I wasn't allowed to get mad about it. So there was no space for the feeling, which is a very natural thing, because my parents didn't want to deal with the discomfort of navigating that with me.
Judy Tsuei (35:00.98)
And so there have definitely been times where I just sit and I'm quiet and I just let my daughter like have the thing or do the thing. And even in my own life, like yesterday I had a conversation with my partner and we have very limited bandwidth because we're both divorced parents and like there's all these things to try to figure out how to have a relationship with all of our obligations, not for lack of, you know, desire interest to want to spend that time together. just logistically isn't always possible. And so I felt myself kind of like,
waning in desire to make the effort because I'm like, well, I could take that time and energy and invest it into my business or I could take it and invest it into these other aspects of my life where I can see more of the direct correlation between my effort and the result. And so we've had this conversation before and we talked about it yesterday and he actually didn't have anything to say because he's like, I don't have an answer to this. But me just
talking through it all and talking through the, it mean this? Do I think this? What about this? Like, again, there were no answers. And I'm just so grateful I have a partner who I can say all the things. Like I can say the, and then it makes me wonder if this is like, you know, the right time or the right space, or then it makes me wonder, like, would we be happier if we had other people who had like more, you know, space and availability and there's no like jealousy, there's no anger or like, you know, upset. It's just,
I hear you, you're processing through all of these feelings. We're in a spot where this is kind of like how it's gonna look for a while, because we both have young children and like, you know, our careers and all that kind of stuff. And then even just being able to do that with him shifted the energy. It shifted. So I didn't come away with a solution, but I just came away feeling better, like something about it not even resolved. It just kind of like,
moved the energy. And I think that I think we underestimate how powerful that can be. Like I think everybody wants to fix it, solve it, make it better. But there's actual just power in like expression. love that expression. right. Expression. just got that feedback the other day from a client that we just ended our work together. And she's like, I never knew the power of just having a space.
Judy Tsuei (37:23.266)
to express myself. And it's so true. love what you said. Like it shifts the energy, but also, you know, I'm finding that just having the space to express yourself allows you to really be in tune with your emotions because that's what you're really expressing through words is your emotions. And that can be super uncomfortable, right? Like super uncomfortable. I'm just gonna call it out. Everyone is super uncomfortable. I love how you shared like we didn't
get to a resolution. And I think that's the hardest thing, you know, that's the hardest thing because we just want to solve something and move on. And so it's so uncomfortable to not have a resolution. that's a huge lesson is like, I keep saying this to myself and then also to my kids and people I work with is like, it's really getting comfortable with the discomfort. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think like,
There's this quote that I love by Rainer Maria Wielke, which I thought was a woman, but is a man. it says, you know, ultimately at the end, it says like, one day you will live your way into the answer. to like, it's like, beg of you to have patience with the questions and to view them as books in a library, in a language you don't understand. And to just allow for that to be there until one day, like you live in your way into the answer. And I think for a lot of us.
if you're coming from a place where there's fear and you wanting your children to succeed, there can be like goalposts that you see because you think hitting those markers are going to mean something as opposed to, sure, we can have direction and we can have momentum that we're building. But the answer, I think a lot of the time is happening in the journey to get there. And like you were saying, like there can be celebration amidst like grief.
There can be just the whole spectrum of colors, of emotions, all at the same time. One thing that I was thinking about recently is that like mantis shrimp that like apparently has so many more cones in its eyes, like to be able to see colors that we can't even see. Like it's the body itself is already like a remarkable series of colors. But like, I think about that a lot that there's creatures that exist now on our planet who can see colors that we can't perceive. And I find that
Judy Tsuei (39:48.77)
Fascinating because I'm like, wait a minute. There's this area of life that exists a hundred percent is real and we can't even fathom What that looks like and so I often think about that as like, know What as we're like living our way into these answers There's like so much here that we probably have no idea about but if we slowed down Paused like sat in the discomfort
maybe some of those like shades and hues will open up a little bit more and we could be like, huh, hadn't seen that that had been like right here in my face. Now I'm like, I got a Google search this day. like, what is that? There's a whole new world. Like literally that's, that's crazy. That's, mean, that's so cool too, but that just, that just shows you how that's fascinating. It just shows you how much there is in life that we are.
like that is available to us. I mean, that's insane. I literally I'm going to Google search that. I think that like I literally I'm like, it's a clear demonstration that there is so much more available that we maybe just aren't you know, like, seriously all the time. I'm like, but what could it be? I just want to know that it exists and I can't see it.
So at the end of every interview I always ask, if you could say fuck saving face about something, what would you say it about? my gosh. Okay, so I listen to your podcast, I'm like, wow, it's so cool to hear everyone else's answer. So like, fuck saving face, living someone else's life. Which I mean by like what other people want for you. Because man, there's a lot of that. That's what I would say.
from my own lived experience. Thank you. And if people want to follow up with you, where can they find you? And you have a podcast too. I do. Yes. Yes. And which you'll be on too. And so I have a podcast. You can find me if you're a podcast listener. Empower Working Mom Revolution is all about amplifying stories of moms. so Judy is one of our guests too. And then I hang out on LinkedIn. LinkedIn, that's where I am.
Judy Tsuei (42:05.826)
I used to be on all the social medias. I'm breaking up with Instagram this year. But LinkedIn is where I am just because I love the community there and the conversation. And then, yeah, those are the two places you can find me at. Awesome. Thank you so much. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you so much for tuning in to today's episode. I hope that your year, whether you're listening to this at the end of the year or the start of the new year, is full of...
opportunity and that whole cycle of being, doing, having that you experience the completion of certain things that you get invigorated by the ideas of new things and that you have the guidance that you need to move forward in the ways that you want to move forward. If you want more support in 2025, I'm opening my books for breakthrough sessions, which a recent client who is incredibly accomplished, also a mom, also a solopreneur said the
first few hours that I spent with you were better than 10 years of therapy. It's just so remarkable to see the results that people are getting and the lasting change that's happening in their lives. And it's something that I hear over and over again from these really inspiring women of color who I am blessed to call my clients and who I get to work with. If you're interested in learning more, you can go to judytsway.com, T-S-U-E-I, or you can email me hello at judytsway.com and let me know and I will connect with you. Have a beautiful week.
Judy Tsuei (43:34.604)
Thank you so much for listening to today's episode. If you'd like to support me and this show, please go to iTunes and leave your review. It means so much to me and it'll help others find this podcast. I'll catch you in the next episode. And if you'd like to stay in touch between now and then, please visit wildheartedwords.com and sign up for my weekly newsletter. I've had people share with me that it's the best thing to arrive in their inbox all week. Aloha.
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Keywords: mental health, Asian Americans, stigma, parenting, community support, mindfulness, emotional health, collective grief, early intervention, cultural awareness, F*ck Saving Face podcast
